wrote in message ...
Boltar wrote:
Personally I'm not too upset about the ELL not going ahead. If it was to be
a proper tube line then fine , but I'd rather my tax money was spent on
something other than a bit of track to join up a load of **** poor TOCs
just so they can **** up east london travel as much as they have everywhere
else.

As far as I can tell, there isn't any "east london travel" that does the
job the ELL would, and so I can't see how the ELL could **** up travel
routes that don't exist. It might not improve them as much as we might
hope, I suppose. Do you have a more cogent argument that you can advance?

The service on the ELL at the moment is not bad (going by personal experience).
Once some TOC takes over you can guarantee that service levels will go through
the floor. That was my point.

B2003

David Fairthorne wrote:

"marcb" wrote in message
...
I see the East London Line has now got yet another vote of no confidence
from central government. What angers me is that noone seems to be
accountable for this abject failure to build a railway that has always
had surefire economic benefit.

M.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...ing%20Standard

Where are the Olympic Games facilities (existing or proposed) located, and
how would the ELL extension serve them?

The Olympics is a red herring - the ELL extensions are for us Londoners and were assessed
independently of an Olympic bid.

M.

On Sat, 1 May 2004 19:56:03 +0100,
wrote:
Boltar wrote:
Personally I'm not too upset about the ELL not going ahead. If it was to be
a proper tube line then fine , but I'd rather my tax money was spent on
something other than a bit of track to join up a load of **** poor TOCs
just so they can **** up east london travel as much as they have everywhere
else.

As far as I can tell, there isn't any "east london travel" that does the
job the ELL would, and so I can't see how the ELL could **** up travel
routes that don't exist. It might not improve them as much as we might
hope, I suppose. Do you have a more cogent argument that you can advance?

Other than the extension north the route follows existing national rail lines.
Living on the proposed southern route of the extension, I've never quite been
able to work out why it's been trumpted as so important. It doesn't open up
many (if any, really) new journey opportunities that seem likely to have any
great demand. All of the southern stations are currently commuter stations
to London Bridge and London Victoria, and unsurprisingly commuter journeys
to those terminuses are the vast majority of journeys. I can't really see
the demand changing from that and all of a sudden there being a rush of
people travelling from, say, Forest Hill to Whitechapel. Which is a journey,
like most others using the proposed extension, which can already be made
easily with just one change anyway.


--
| Mark Hynes |
| "What are you trying to incinerate?" |

On 16 May 2004 12:40:35 GMT, Mark Hynes wrote:

[ellx]
Other than the extension north the route follows existing national rail lines.
Living on the proposed southern route of the extension, I've never quite been
able to work out why it's been trumpted as so important. It doesn't open up
many (if any, really) new journey opportunities that seem likely to have any
great demand. All of the southern stations are currently commuter stations
to London Bridge and London Victoria, and unsurprisingly commuter journeys
to those terminuses are the vast majority of journeys. I can't really see
the demand changing from that and all of a sudden there being a rush of
people travelling from, say, Forest Hill to Whitechapel. Which is a journey,
like most others using the proposed extension, which can already be made
easily with just one change anyway.

but surely the ELLX does the following?

a) extend Tube services to South London
b) provides a new cross London service
c) provides faster journeys to Docklands via Canada Water / Shadwell
stations
d) provides a new access point to part of the City via the Shoreditch
High St station
e) provides a Tube service into the London Borough of Hackney
f) provides a potential for economic development in deprived parts of
London
g) provides an orbital rail service across South and Inner East London
h) provides a second Tube link into the Tramlink network
i) potentially reduces the loading / congestion via key Central London
termini and their adjacent tube stations.

I don't doubt that a reasonable proportion of people will remain with
the National Rail services to current termini but at least many people
will be offered an increased choice of travel options with a reasonably
high level of service.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

but surely the ELLX does the following?

a) extend Tube services to South London
It won't be tube, it'll be National Rail with National Rail frequencies


b) provides a new cross London service

Yes... bu more of a round London service

c) provides faster journeys to Docklands via Canada Water / Shadwell
stations

Yes

d) provides a new access point to part of the City via the Shoreditch
High St station

Not many people working in the city woudl call Shoreditch the city.
Anyway, I think Shoreditch Station will be closed.

e) provides a Tube service into the London Borough of Hackney
See point a. Anyway, what is the use of a tube service if 90% of the
people want to use it to go to the city or West end, and the tube goes
somewhere else?


f) provides a potential for economic development in deprived parts of
London
Yes

g) provides an orbital rail service across South and Inner East London
Yes

h) provides a second Tube link into the Tramlink network

not a tube


i) potentially reduces the loading / congestion via key Central London
termini and their adjacent tube stations.

Yes



I agree with the originator of this thread - I don't see what all the fuss
is about. Yes, it would be nice to have, and it's a disgrace that it is
being stopped (if it is) after starting work because we "can't afford"
cost of 3.5 miiles of new track, but it's not a great addition to the
London network, and hardly a major infrastructure build that is worth
trumpeting from the rooftops..






--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Stephen Richards wrote:

I agree with the originator of this thread - I don't see what all the
fuss is about. Yes, it would be nice to have, and it's a disgrace
that it is being stopped (if it is) after starting work because we
"can't afford" cost of 3.5 miiles of new track, but it's not a great
addition to the London network, and hardly a major infrastructure
build that is worth trumpeting from the rooftops..

A factor being overlooked when discussing the proposed service over the ELL
is that having reconnected it to the national railway network is that
through services from further afield will be able to make cross London
journeys, "resident" service frequency permitting of course.

Living on the proposed southern route of the extension, I've never quite been
able to work out why it's been trumpted as so important. It doesn't open up
many (if any, really) new journey opportunities that seem likely to have any
great demand. All of the southern stations are currently commuter stations
to London Bridge and London Victoria, and unsurprisingly commuter journeys
to those terminuses are the vast majority of journeys. I can't really see
the demand changing from that and all of a sudden there being a rush of
people travelling from, say, Forest Hill to Whitechapel. Which is a journey,
like most others using the proposed extension, which can already be made
easily with just one change anyway.

but surely the ELLX does the following?

a) extend Tube services to South London

Not in a meaningful way. For any sensible journey, it would simply
move a change at London Bridge to a change at Whitechapel. It would be
better to scrap the Northern half of the project, abandon Shoreditch
and extend the services terminating at Tower Hill and Whitechapel to
the South Central (then there would be serious new journey
opporunities - a one seat ride to the middle of things at Charing X
Embankment and losing one connection from any journeys involving the
ECML, MML, WCML, or GWML.

b) provides a new cross London service

No, it provides a service to stations in North London that aren't even
on any main line. One of the major reasons for Thameslink being so
successful is that passengers on the Midland Main Line have a single
change to get to the South Coast.

c) provides faster journeys to Docklands via Canada Water / Shadwell
stations

Depends where you're starting from. From Clapham Junction, it'd be
quicker via Waterloo; from Croydon, it'd be quicker on a fast train to
London Bridge; from New Cross you might as well walk to Deptford
Bridge. In fact a far easier and more useful extension for South
London to Docklands travel would be a DLR branch over the New Cross Rd
with stations at New Cross, New Cross Gate, and Queen's Rd Peckham.

d) provides a new access point to part of the City via the Shoreditch
High St station

It'd be almost as much a walk as from Whitechapel.

e) provides a Tube service into the London Borough of Hackney

Here's the real motive... pity it doesn't go anywhere like Chelney was
meant to.

f) provides a potential for economic development in deprived parts of
London

Explain.

g) provides an orbital rail service across South and Inner East London

Not quite. Tangential more like.

h) provides a second Tube link into the Tramlink network

And like the existing tube link, it has little practical use. Just as
from Wimbledon, you'd ride into Waterloo unless you wanted
specifically to go to Pad, I'm pretty sure anyone from Croydon would
get on a Fast train to Victoria or a Thameslink rather than sit on a
slow Underground train to Hackney (unless they wanted to go to
Hackney.

i) potentially reduces the loading / congestion via key Central London
termini and their adjacent tube stations.

This would be particularly useful at London Bridge, but ELLX in its
current form looks like a bit of a damp squib.

I've never understood why all the southern extensions will run from
New X Gate rather than being shared between New X Gate and New X. As
a result passengers from outer South-East London will hardly benefit
at all from the ELL extension.

Gary Jenkins wrote:

I've never understood why all the southern extensions will run from
New X Gate rather than being shared between New X Gate and New X. As
a result passengers from outer South-East London will hardly benefit
at all from the ELL extension.

In a nutshell - capacity issues at Lewisham, which would be extremely
expensive to resolve.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Stephen Richards wrote:


but surely the ELLX does the following?

a) extend Tube services to South London

It won't be tube, it'll be National Rail with National Rail frequencies

Correct on the first point - but 4tph on the other branches is a similar
frequency to some outer London LUL services. And there will be 16tph
through the core section.

b) provides a new cross London service

Yes... bu more of a round London service

....but it does get you across London.

(snip)
d) provides a new access point to part of the City via the Shoreditch
High St station

Not many people working in the city woudl call Shoreditch the city.
Anyway, I think Shoreditch Station will be closed.

Shoreditch High St, where the new station will be located, is certainly
quite close to the City (about 10 minutes' walk from Livepool St?) and I
believe some new developments are spreading out of the City in this
direction.

The existing Shoreditch station will close, to be replaced by the new
Shoreditch High St station further west.

e) provides a Tube service into the London Borough of Hackney

See point a. Anyway, what is the use of a tube service if 90% of the
people want to use it to go to the city or West end, and the tube goes
somewhere else?

Hackney has a rail link directly into the City. OK, it doesn't have a
direct service to the West End - but such a route will be extremely
expensive and is already being planned (Crossrail 2).

This will certainly be a good link to *Docklands*.

h) provides a second Tube link into the Tramlink network

not a tube

Again true - many people don't seem to realise this!

i) potentially reduces the loading / congestion via key Central London
termini and their adjacent tube stations.

Yes

Recent modelling predicted that 5,000 passengers will be removed from
each of Waterloo and London Bridge stations - presumably passengers
travelling to Docklands, who will use the less-used Canada Water station
or Shadwell instead.

I agree with the originator of this thread - I don't see what all the
fuss is about. Yes, it would be nice to have, and it's a disgrace that
it is being stopped (if it is) after starting work because we "can't
afford" cost of 3.5 miiles of new track, but it's not a great addition
to the London network, and hardly a major infrastructure build that is
worth trumpeting from the rooftops..

There are two major points which haven't been mentioned.

Price - the ELL avoids Zone 1. At current season ticket prices, someone
travelling between two Zone 2 stations - for example Clapham Junction
and Canary Wharf - could save themselves *£416* per year by taking the
ELL. Passengers from West Croydon to Canary Wharf would save £548.
If that's not a major point, I don't know what is. Part of the ELL's
economic regeneration aspect is that it makes travelling cheaper for
passengers from some depressed inner-city areas like Hackney.

Orbirail - Construction of these links is the most important step to
Orbirail, orbital services via Willesden Junction, Clapham Junction,
Highbury, the NLL and ELLX. Journeys between opposite sides of London
might still be faster via the centre (although some people will
appreciate the not having to change) - but this orbital route connects
some major centres, and once again, the price factor comes into play.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London