Paul Terry wrote in message ...
In message , TheOneKEA
writes

withdrawal of Eurostar from Waterloo

If the Stratford International DLR link is mooted, passengers will have
level access from the Jubbly terminus to the former westbound NLL
platform, where they can catch the DLR to the International station.

But you see how this compares with the current interchange at Waterloo:
it takes just a few seconds from SWT to Eurostar. We know that is
closing, but Stratford is still being argued over and the interchange at
Waterloo to the jubbly is hardly brilliant. Customers will inevitably
re-evaluate Heathrow, which is usually cheaper and in the future may
prove quicker.

Maybe customers in SWT-land. But what about customers on the Central
Line? Or customers living in Beckton? Or folks on the District?

IMO, whatever custom Eurostar *might* lose by closing Waterloo and
forcing folks to go to St. Pancras and Stratford will undoubtedly be
reversed by the much larger numbers of people who will be able to get
to Stratford far more easily (and cheaply!) than Waterloo.


I guess that Eurostar have done their sums, but I regard a single very
slick change (as at Waterloo at present) as a huge selling point. So do
Eurostar, but they now only express this in terms of customers coming
from the north and midlands (good luck to those customers ... but they
are not going to provide the enormous day-trip trade to the near-
continent that is possible from SW London).

I suspect Eurostar will lose a fair amount of traffic to Heathrow, and
I'm not convinced they will easily replace it. Strange for a company to
want to restrict its outlets ... and if the government was serious in
wanting to restrict air-traffic pollution, it might have stepped in
(perhaps Eurostar are hoping they still might!).

As I've already stated, I feel that whatever traffic Eurostar might
lose at Waterloo, it will regain in spades at Stratford. *Especially*
if the Stratford International is opened in a timely fashion.

Problem with Vauxhall is the stairs...

And not all trains stop at Vauxhall.... plus the gap.
"Paul Terry" wrote in message
news
In message , Dave Arquati
writes

Waterloo to King's Cross isn't terrible - if it's done via the
cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus.

No, but the point is that there will now be three interchanges each way
where there is now only one.

Six interchanges on a return trip to the continent where there are now
only two.

I fear this will be a big disincentive to use Eurostar.

However, it's not the most obvious route (which I reckon, from the tube
map, looks like via Leicester Square). Perhaps they should put up
really big signs at Waterloo...

For SWT services that stop at Vauxhall, the Victoria line to King's
Cross will be a better bet - but the interchange at Vauxhall, with
luggage, in the rush hour, is an abomination.

--
Paul Terry

In message , TheOneKEA
writes

Paul Terry wrote in message
...

Customers will inevitably re-evaluate Heathrow, which is usually
cheaper and in the future may prove quicker.

Maybe customers in SWT-land.

Those are the ones we are discussing, yes.

But what about customers on the Central
Line? Or customers living in Beckton? Or folks on the District?

They are likely to have to suffer the appalling interchange planned for
Stratford. The last I heard, Union Railways are even resisting putting
in a travelator (it is rumoured they want to force people to walk past a
quarter of mile of shops to get to the International station).

IMO, whatever custom Eurostar *might* lose by closing Waterloo and
forcing folks to go to St. Pancras and Stratford will undoubtedly be
reversed by the much larger numbers of people who will be able to get
to Stratford far more easily (and cheaply!) than Waterloo.

But will such people want or need to use Eurostar?

And why should a company merely want to replace one cohort of customers
with another? Most would use an opportunity such as this to *increase*
their customer base by *adding* all those new fares from Stratford, not
by using them to replace lost Waterloo customers.

As I've already stated, I feel that whatever traffic Eurostar might
lose at Waterloo, it will regain in spades at Stratford.

To a large extent it will depend on whether those needing to go to
Brussels and Paris for business meetings, or choosing to go there on
leisure breaks, live mainly in SW London or in Beckton etc. I suspect it
is mostly the former, and Eurostar are therefore going to be forced to
start building a new customer base from scratch instead of building on
their existing market.

--
Paul Terry

--- M.Whitson saked:


E* say they cannot afford Waterloo and yet they can afford
three new stations. Perhaps someone can say how they will
be able to justify Stratford and Ebbsfleet

Easy. From the money they save by closing Waterloo.

--- Charley_Ashbury said:


As much as I'd like to go on train, as we prefer it, I drive us down
to
Ashford, or we fly from Manchester. I don't want to suffer multiple
changes
and dragging of suitcases on the tube, just to London and the SE can
have
Waterloo for their sole "exclusive" use.


I think you've missed the point. Those of us in London and the SE want
Waterloo *as well as* St. Pancras. Just having one or the other is
always going to be inconvenient for someone.

--- Terry Harper said:

Those from South-East of London find it more convenient to go to
Ashford,
rather than go into London, transfer to Waterloo, walk down a very
long
platform, and return whence they came. Gatwick was much more
convenient, but
nature abhors a vacuum.

Some parts of South East London, maybe? But what about those of us in
other parts of South London? To get from here to Ashford, I'd probably
have to go to Victoria or London Bridge and change for a semi-fast train
out to Ashford, taking forever to get there. And again on the way back.
There'd be no time left to enjoy my day trip to Paris at all.

Dave Arquati wrote in message ...
TheOneKEA wrote:
Paul Terry wrote in message ...

In message , Alex
Terrell writes


The Daily Telegraph reports that Eurostar will quit Waterloo in 2007.

I think this is a good idea. Even from Waterloo, it would be quicket
to take the tube to St Pancras and then take a fast Eurostar.

There's no direct tube! It ought to be quicker to take the Jubilee
direct from Waterloo to Stratford and pick-up Eurostar there. However,
the interchange at Stratford looks as though it is going to be poor.


Actually, it won't. If the Stratford International DLR link is mooted,
passengers will have level access from the Jubbly terminus to the
former westbound NLL platform, where they can catch the DLR to the
International station.

You are right about the lack of direct tube services; unfortunately,
the obvious choice of changing at Warren Street requires hiking
through the station. Too bad that Crossrail 3 will be opened after the
sun has burnt out...

Waterloo to King's Cross isn't terrible - if it's done via the
cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus. However, it's not the most
obvious route (which I reckon, from the tube map, looks like via
Leicester Square). Perhaps they should put up really big signs at
Waterloo...

There is of course Waterloo East to Northfleet (50 min), which could
perhaps be Waterloo to Ebsfleet. However, if I remember from the
plans, the North Kent line trains will still use Northfleet, which is
several hundred metres from Ebbsfleet. When the Crossrail terminus is
built ....

"Peter Masson" wrote in message ...
"Alex Terrell" wrote in message
om...

My suggestion. Act now, build extended, 400m platforms at a few outer
London station (perhaps Surbiton and Staines), and use these to
consolidate 8 carriage trains into 16 carriage trains for the final
trip through London.

It would not be difficult to use these platforms for Windsor Line trains,
making it much less likely for any trains to have to queue up outside
Waterloo waiting for platforms. But that wonn't make use of the platform
length - it would probably be too expensive to extend any Windsor line
station to take 12x20m trains, let alone 16- or 20-car.

There could be a case for running 15x23m trains on the Southampton Main
Line, with platform extensions at, say, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester,
Southampton Airport Parkway and Southampton Central. But to make use of the
long platforms at Waterloo, the Fast Lines on the SWML would have to cross
the Windsor Lines. I don't think there's room after the Chatham Line bridge
to get up to the Linford Street flyover, so it would mean something like
getting the Windsor Lines to dive under the Main Lines between Clapham
Junction and Culvert Road. The cost would be likely to get so many noughts
on it to destroy any business case.

I was thinking you only need ONE inbound extension on each route, e.g
Woking or Surbiton, and Staines. Use this to consolidate trains.

There's also the question of what to do with all the passenger accommodation
at Waterloo International, waiting rooms, immigration offices, etc. Would it
convert into a shopping mall? ;-)

Undoubtedly.

They also need to build a travelator through the terminal to speed up
commuter flows.

Peter

"Peter Masson" wrote in message ...
"Alex Terrell" wrote in message
om...

My suggestion. Act now, build extended, 400m platforms at a few outer
London station (perhaps Surbiton and Staines), and use these to
consolidate 8 carriage trains into 16 carriage trains for the final
trip through London.

It would not be difficult to use these platforms for Windsor Line trains,
making it much less likely for any trains to have to queue up outside
Waterloo waiting for platforms. But that wonn't make use of the platform
length - it would probably be too expensive to extend any Windsor line
station to take 12x20m trains, let alone 16- or 20-car.

Not to mention the fact that they still can't even run a full complement
of 8 car trains of the new stocks on the 3rd rail system because of power
supply issues.

B2003

Terry Harper wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 15 Nov 2004:

Those from South-East of London find it more convenient to go to Ashford,
rather than go into London, transfer to Waterloo, walk down a very long
platform, and return whence they came. Gatwick was much more convenient, but
nature abhors a vacuum.

Not just south-east of London - my parents, who live about 15 miles west
of Brighton, go that way on the rare occasions they want to catch a E*.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 6 November 2004 with new photos