On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:24:00 +0100, Clive
wrote:

Yes they are, do you think that councils would go to the trouble of
increasing curb heights at bus stops and bus companies providing special
(therefore more expensive) busses than needed if it weren't for the
legislation around access to invalids such as wheelchair users?

1. MK Metro have at least one low floor bus without a wheelchair
space, so evidently, yes. This bus (relatively old, so probably one
of the very early low floor designs) was clearly designed only to make
it easier for people to board. (To be fair, I doubt a buggy would fit
either).

2. That the money was spent predominantly to provide wheelchair access
is irrelevant to the argument of whether the space is also intended
for prams, luggage, standing passengers, bicycles or whatever else
might happen to use it.

3. I've never seen a wheelchair user on a bus in Milton Keynes, ever,
not on a single occasion. I have, however, seen many prams.

4. Assuming they do not take place at the same time on the same
specific bus, provision for wheelchair and pushchair access are not
mutually exclusive.

Your comments are like saying that someone with heavy luggage should
not use a station lift, because it was most likely funded on the basis
of providing wheelchair access.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In message , Neil Williams
writes
Your comments are like saying that someone with heavy luggage should
not use a station lift, because it was most likely funded on the basis
of providing wheelchair access.
Not at all, I don't care if women want to take buggies onto busses, I'm
simply pointing out that business doesn't make money by throwing it away
on facilities that aren't a requirement.
--
Clive

Clive wrote:
In message , Neil Williams
writes
Your comments are like saying that someone with heavy luggage
should not use a station lift, because it was most likely funded
on the basis of providing wheelchair access.
Not at all, I don't care if women want to take buggies onto busses,
I'm simply pointing out that business doesn't make money by
throwing it away on facilities that aren't a requirement.

But if the facilities enable parents with buggies to use buses
conveniently, then the business *will* benefit, even if the facilities
were provided because the DDA said they should be.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Paul Corfield wrote:

[I agree with most of your post, but this bit is not quite right...]

As others have said the space on these buses is for wheelchair
users not specifically for buggies which are carried unfolded
as a favour not a right.

TfL Conditions of Carriage, section 13.2.1:
"Low floor buses improve accessibility for all passengers, especially
those in wheelchairs and those with children in buggies/pushchairs.
These buses are designed to allow wheelchairs, buggies and pushchairs to
be wheeled on and off the bus and
for them to be left unfolded in the wheelchair space provided for this
purpose."

It goes on to say that wheelchair users have priority, but it is clearly
TfL policy to allow buggies to be left unfolded in the "wheelchair
space" whenever possible. It's not a right, but it's more than just a
favour.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:33:23 +0100, Clive
wrote:

Are they prepared to fold up a pushchair if a wheelchair user gets on a
bus they are already on?

They certainly should be. If they are not (assuming they are able to
do so), they are then being inconsiderate.

Exactly -- if she is able to do so. If she is on her own then holding the
infant, and bags that were hanging off/put underneath the pushchair, folding
the pushchair, and then manoeuvring the combination on to the bus is not as
easy as some on this newsgroup believe.

Perhaps they'd be happier if those concerned didn't use public transport and
used cars instead.

Dave

Clive wrote:
In message ,
writes
they've got a buggy and child to shift.
They are masters of their own fate. If they can't fold a push chair
then walk, if they can't walk then keep your knees together and you
won't have the trouble of push chairs and kids annoying real passengers
who need to get from A to B. Lets not forget that these women have all
day to do their shopping or what ever it is they do.

Ah, I see now. A troll or a moron. Goodbye.

#Paul

"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
...

But the design of buses has improved and the parents , who are much
more numerous than wheelchair users, might reasonably expect that they
don't have to mess around with folding buggies any more.

That doesn't alter the fact that I, a 55 year-old, am expected to jump up
and hand over my seat the minute some 17 year-old chav slapper gets on the
bus with a buggy the size of Peckham!

Ian

"Nick Cooper" wrote in
message ...

I would have just ignored her (unless she was pregnant with the next
one, of course).

Hindsight being, of course, 20-20 vision, that's what I should have done,
yes. I'll know for next time - and there undoubtedly will be a next time.

Ian

"Jason" wrote in message
...

Most people think moving for "a girl with a buggy" is the polite thing
to do. Clearly your manners are deficient.

Well, I don't. I think it's polite to move for an elderly person. Or for a
pregnant woman. Or for a disabled person. Please don't lecture me on
manners, sonny.

You have a choice of the *any vacant seat* (or even the top deck of a
double), whilst she has the choice of one or two seats near the only
available space to put her push-chair out of the way of other
passengers.

It's her choice to bring her whingeing brat onto public transport. I had no
other choice of seat, and precious little standing space.

The signage clearly says that the space is for wheelchairs - since when
have
Big Mac-chomping, income support-claiming chav slappers with wailing brats
require the same level of concern as people in wheelchairs?

So what were YOU doing in the wheel-chair place?

Er - there were no wheelchairs in it.

Was there not ANY other seat on the bus?

No, not one. And very little standing space. By manhanddling her wretched
machine onto the bus, she caused upset and disruption to several passengers.

Was she really eating a Big-Mac on the bus?

Not at that time, no. Her gob was too full of chewing-gum.

How do you *know* she was on income-support?

Beacuse this sort of person invariably is. I know - I pay for it.

Are these just unsubstantiated rantings, or or are you just bleating
because of YOUR selfishness?

How is it selfish to expect kids with brats not to think the world revolves
around them and their procreational activities? My rant is well
substantiated.

Ian

In article , (Ian F.)
wrote:

"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
...

But the design of buses has improved and the parents , who are much
more numerous than wheelchair users, might reasonably expect that they
don't have to mess around with folding buggies any more.

That doesn't alter the fact that I, a 55 year-old, am expected to jump
up and hand over my seat the minute some 17 year-old chav slapper gets
on the bus with a buggy the size of Peckham!

Why not? I haven't lost my sense of courtesy by being 55.

--
Colin Rosenstiel