Ronnie Clark wrote:

It is sad, but understandable, that the BBC did felt it was a better
used of
resources to tape over old programs in the 1970s. This was when most of
the
original video tapes of Doctor Who from 1963-1972 were junked (though
in
at least two instances, this was in error).

What errors were these?

1966's "The Tenth Planet" episode 4, featuring the first regeneration, was
kept in the archive along with the other three episodes of the story. It
only went missing after Blue Peter borrowed the tape to use the
regeneration
clip.

Complete myth. The BBC did not have an "archive" until 1978. Before then its
collection was spread between the Film Library, the Engineering Department
(videotapes) and Enterprises (overseas sales).

The Tenth Planet 4 was *never* held by the Film Library (although for some
reason they accumulated copies of the other three episodes at various
points). So there was no copy for Blue Peter to lose - they got theirs from
Enterprises who were still selling the story the next year. The Film Library
did however have a copy of The Daleks' Master Plan 4 which was loaned to
Blue Peter and never returned. But this wasn't really "error" and it
certainly wasn't the original videotape.

And 1974's "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" episode 1 only went missing because
it was mistaken for 1968/9's "Invasion" episode 1. This was a moderately
easy mistake to make because, to keep the dinosaurs a secret, "Invasion of
the Dinosaurs" episode 1 was simply captioned as "Invasion" on screen. Ah
well.

No, this is another myth. The Invasion 1 had already been wiped. And tapes
were not wiped on the basis on onscreen title - the label would have shown
the full title, and it would have also been clear the tape was in colour.
The wiping appears to have been completely in order.

It was the very last (chronologically) episode to be junked, therefore
making series 12 (Tom Baker's first series) the earliest series not to
suffer from junkings.

Not true - the first episode of the following story (Death to the Daleks)
was also wiped, but later copies were returned - first a 525 NTSC copy from
Canada and then a 625 PAL copy from Dubai.

At least
one episode, 1965's "The Feast Of Steven", the only episode except for
2005's "Christmas Invasion" to premiere on Christmas Day, was never
transferred to film for overseas sale, and is therefore the most likely
candidate for "episode that will never be recovered".

Mind you from recollection the second series of Dad's Army was not
transferred either and yet two of the missing episodes turned up a few
years
ago.

Well, it's quite surprising just what can show up at times... "The Feast
Of
Steven" was an episode of the 12 part epic "The Daleks' Masterplan".
Because
it was so lengthy, only one copy (IIRC) of the 11 part version (sans "The
Feast Of Steven") was made... Yet amazingly enough, three episodes from
the
serial have now been returned!

I think more than one - BBC Enterprises would make master film negatives (1
copy) and strike positives as and when needed - at least one set was made to
send viewing prints to Australia (who declined to purchase). It's possible
other copies were made for various reasons - the copy of episode 4 that
wound up in the Film Library was probably a print made for internal
reference for one BBC department or another.

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Ronnie Clark wrote:

It is sad, but understandable, that the BBC did felt it was a better
used of
resources to tape over old programs in the 1970s. This was when most
of
the
original video tapes of Doctor Who from 1963-1972 were junked (though
in
at least two instances, this was in error).

What errors were these?

1966's "The Tenth Planet" episode 4

Complete myth. The BBC did not have an "archive" until 1978. Before then
its
collection was spread between the Film Library, the Engineering Department
(videotapes) and Enterprises (overseas sales).

And 1974's "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" episode 1

No, this is another myth. The Invasion 1 had already been wiped. And tapes
were not wiped on the basis on onscreen title - the label would have shown
the full title, and it would have also been clear the tape was in colour.
The wiping appears to have been completely in order.

Well... These are both stories from the great Levine, so I should have
guessed that something wasn't right about them


It was the very last (chronologically) episode to be junked, therefore
making series 12 (Tom Baker's first series) the earliest series not to
suffer from junkings.

Not true - the first episode of the following story (Death to the Daleks)
was also wiped, but later copies were returned - first a 525 NTSC copy
from
Canada and then a 625 PAL copy from Dubai.

I understood that "Death To The Daleks" 1 was 'mislaid' by Enterprises (who
to this day, as Worlwide, still haven't 'found' their copy) rather than
wiped. Is this not true?

Well, it's quite surprising just what can show up at times... "The Feast
Of
Steven" was an episode of the 12 part epic "The Daleks' Masterplan".
Because
it was so lengthy, only one copy (IIRC) of the 11 part version (sans
"The
Feast Of Steven") was made... Yet amazingly enough, three episodes from
the
serial have now been returned!

I think more than one - BBC Enterprises would make master film negatives
(1
copy) and strike positives as and when needed - at least one set was made
to
send viewing prints to Australia (who declined to purchase). It's possible
other copies were made for various reasons - the copy of episode 4 that
wound up in the Film Library was probably a print made for internal
reference for one BBC department or another.

It is probably the single positive I'm thinking of. I till find it hard to
believe that supposedly only one positive was made, though. A story with
"Daleks" in the title in 1965/1966?! In between the two Dalek motion
pictures?! Ah well.


--
Ronnie
--
Have a great day...
....Have a Great Central day.
www.greatcentralrailway.com

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 20:47:19 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

You had to coat the recorded side of the tape with a special fluid to show up
the recording tracks and then cut carefully between the tracks using a
special jig. Programmes were charged 50 quid an edit, which was a fortune in
those days.

"Producer's Choice" and each department running as a profit centre
even in those days?

In message , Graeme Wall
writes
In message
Ian Jelf wrote:

In message , Graeme Wall
writes
The only death I've heard of in a BBC studio was a messenger who had a
heart attack during a live programme.

YTV in Leeds famously had a guest die on their afternoon chat show
"Calendar People" in the seventies. (This was the same programme - but
not edition - which saw Richard Whiteley's famous encounter with a
ferret. I'm trying really hard to come up with a railway or London
transport connection here but can't!)

I can help you there, the only time I saw Richard Whitely was on a train.

And now I've thought of one as well. Richard Whiteley's first TV job
was with ITN who were then at television House on the corner of Kingsway
and Aldwych.......just across from Aldwych station and literally above
the Aldwych branch featured (or not) in "Death Line"!

We make a great team, Mr. Wall! :-))
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Ronnie Clark wrote:

1966's "The Tenth Planet" episode 4

Complete myth. The BBC did not have an "archive" until 1978. Before then
its
collection was spread between the Film Library, the Engineering
Department
(videotapes) and Enterprises (overseas sales).

And 1974's "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" episode 1

No, this is another myth. The Invasion 1 had already been wiped. And
tapes
were not wiped on the basis on onscreen title - the label would have
shown
the full title, and it would have also been clear the tape was in colour.
The wiping appears to have been completely in order.

Well... These are both stories from the great Levine, so I should have
guessed that something wasn't right about them

Both (along with others) have been well and truly debunked many times.

It was the very last (chronologically) episode to be junked, therefore
making series 12 (Tom Baker's first series) the earliest series not to
suffer from junkings.

Not true - the first episode of the following story (Death to the Daleks)
was also wiped, but later copies were returned - first a 525 NTSC copy
from
Canada and then a 625 PAL copy from Dubai.

I understood that "Death To The Daleks" 1 was 'mislaid' by Enterprises
(who
to this day, as Worlwide, still haven't 'found' their copy) rather than
wiped. Is this not true?

Curiously Enterprises were selling the Pertwee episodes in both PAL and NTSC
format in 1974, but four years later they never returned any videotapes. So
effectively *all* the Pertwee videotapes were "mislaid". About half of the
originals were still in the Engineering Department in 1978 when a change of
policy stopped the wipings and created the Archive. Death 1 was the latest
one missing.

Roughly speaking the sources for Doctor Who episodes currently existing (and
a lot of other shows as well) are as follows:

From within the BBC:

* Original PAL colour videotapes from the Engineering Department that had
not yet been wiped. (All the b/w videotapes were wiped by 1975.)
* Original film prints for the handful of stories either transmitted from
35mm telerecordings or shot entirely on film, that had been retained by the
BBC Film Library.
* Internal 16 mm film recording viewing prints for odd black and white
episodes that wound up in the Film Library.
* Black & White 16 mm film recordings made for overseas sales (of both the
b/w and colour years) that had not yet been junked by BBC Enterprises.

From outside:
* Black & white film recordings returned from a mixture of overseas
television stations, private collectors, engineers, found in BBC cupboards
and other places.
* PAL colour videotapes returned from overseas broadcasters in the same
format as the original.
* NTSC conversions from the US and Canada. A process called "Reverse
Standards Conversion" has been developed to restore the episodes to their
original quality
* Off air NTSC colour videotapes of broadcasts in the US and Canada. A lot
have been combined with the black and white prints to restore the colour.
* Plus a black & white PAL broadcast quality videotape that was combined
with the colour signal from an NTSC conversion.

I think more than one - BBC Enterprises would make master film negatives
(1
copy) and strike positives as and when needed - at least one set was made
to
send viewing prints to Australia (who declined to purchase). It's
possible
other copies were made for various reasons - the copy of episode 4 that
wound up in the Film Library was probably a print made for internal
reference for one BBC department or another.

It is probably the single positive I'm thinking of. I till find it hard to
believe that supposedly only one positive was made, though. A story with
"Daleks" in the title in 1965/1966?! In between the two Dalek motion
pictures?! Ah well.

Yes but was Dalekmania a phenomenon outside the UK at that time?

Graeme Wall wrote in message
:

In message
"Ronnie Clark" wrote:

It was quite some time before more advanced editing techniques made
it possible to record a whole serial in one go, however I vaguely
recall that it started in the middle of the third series.

Not quite sure what you mean by this, presumably you are referring to
the advent of electronic editing.

What was it that precluded electronic editing by dubbing from one tape to
another, as they did until a few years ago? Was it simply that copying from
one tape to another in the early days brought the quality below acceptible
broadcast standards?

In message
Laurence Payne wrote:

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 20:47:19 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

You had to coat the recorded side of the tape with a special fluid to
show up the recording tracks and then cut carefully between the tracks
using a special jig. Programmes were charged 50 quid an edit, which was
a fortune in those days.

"Producer's Choice" and each department running as a profit centre
even in those days?

Hardly, Birt hadn't been invented then. And would you kindly mind your
language on a family newsgroup :-)

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

In message , BH Williams
writes
In Tyne Tees we used to edit a football match review in a hurry on 2"
tape. I can't remember the name of the programme, maybe "the Big
Match".

Probably "Shoot!", TTTV's regional football programme from the early
sixties until 1982.

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message
"BH Williams" wrote:

[snip]

In Tyne Tees we used to edit a football match review in a hurry on 2" tape.
I can't remember the name of the programme, maybe "the Big Match".

Anyway a famous local derby between Newcastle and Sunderland was edited
very fast, between the end of the programme and transmission, where we
developed the control track, cut bits out, and then left the only goal
hanging on the back of the door. (You could only see the content when you
ran it over the video heads.)

The Toon army never let us hear the end of that one!


You're lucky to be alive!

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

In message
Ian Jelf wrote:

In message , Graeme Wall
writes
[snip]

I can help you there, the only time I saw Richard Whitely was on a train.

And now I've thought of one as well. Richard Whiteley's first TV job
was with ITN who were then at television House on the corner of Kingsway
and Aldwych.......just across from Aldwych station and literally above
the Aldwych branch featured (or not) in "Death Line"!

We make a great team, Mr. Wall! :-))

The Old Firm, established censored, Mr Jelf.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html