On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 10:49:35 +0100, Peter Smyth wrote:

It wouldn't be that simple. You would need to get rid of some H&C or Met
services as well in order to ensure there was sufficient capacity on the
north half of the Circle.

Quite right. I had in mind (but forgot to mention) that some Mets
would have to be cut back to Baker Street.

Two other questions for fellow sufferers and experts...

1) Does anyone know why there is such inflexibility about scheduling
trains to the richmond branch?

Problems and delays occur pretty frequently, and it seems that LUL are
unable to do anything about maintaining a good rotation of trains to
the different destinations. A typical case is that you can be waiting
at Earls Court for a Richmond train and see Wimbledon, Parsons Green,
Ealing Broadway, Wimbledon, Ealing Broadway, Ealing Broadway and then
finally a Richmond train.

Surely it would be much better to admit timetables are messed up and
reschedule trains at Earls Court to maintain a regular flow of trains
to all 3 branches?

2) Does anyone know how to access the train information system via the
web?

I noticed that the platform assistants at Earls Court have new PDAs
that seem to show train position information. Anyone know how to see
this from outside LUL? It would be really handy to tell when a richmond
train is coming when I am planning to leave work for the day.

Cheers,

Harry
( hjb _at_ null _dot_ net )

wrote:
Aosmosis wrote:
How reliable is the Richmond branch of the NNL and district line?

I think almost from the moment your question was rendered it's been
pumping awful!
--
gordon

NewsPosting wrote:

(snip)

2) Does anyone know how to access the train information system via the
web?

I noticed that the platform assistants at Earls Court have new PDAs
that seem to show train position information. Anyone know how to see
this from outside LUL? It would be really handy to tell when a richmond
train is coming when I am planning to leave work for the day.


The Underground ETA boards don't currently cover the District line, so
there is no way of getting this information. Obviously at Earls Court
you won't get an ETA display either, you just get the destination of
the next train (or the train at the platform) - information about other
services comes at the whim of the station staff annoucing it over the
PA system.

The other suggestion I have is getting an Ealing Broadway train,
getting off at Chiswick Park and walk the half mile down to Gunnersbury
station in the hope that a North London Line train will turn up. Given
that at Earls Court you often have no idea when the next Richmond train
is due doing this would be a bit of a gamble, as you might well miss
the Richmond District train whilst you're walking between stations.

NewsPosting wrote:

The Underground ETA boards don't currently cover the District line, so
there is no way of getting this information. Obviously at Earls Court
you won't get an ETA display either, you just get the destination of
the next train (or the train at the platform) - information about other
services comes at the whim of the station staff annoucing it over the
PA system.

Hmm, puzzling, I'm sure I saw the platform assistant at earls court
look at something that seemed to be indicating train positions on the
line. Unfortunately they didn't show it for long enough for me to see
what info it actually had.

Apols, I could've been clearer - there is no public access (via the
internet) to any District line running information of this sort. There
is of course an internal LU system to keep track of where the trains
are - so perhaps the platform assistant was indeed accessing this
through their PDA.


[BTW.. thanks for the tip about Chiswick Park, unfortunately it's hard
to predict when the next richmond train is to know when it's worth it.]

If Earls Court had modern dot-matrix ETA displays ('train describers'
in LU parlance I believe) that listed the next five or so trains then
one could of course make an educated decision with regards to this
option - but of course Earls Court offers no such luxury.

I guess that given the complexity of Earls Court and perhaps the lack
of certainty over which platform a train will arrive at then this isn't
as simple as it seems, though there could at least be train describers
for each direction (east and west) which only become platform specific
when the train pulls in. Another complication is the possibility of
District line trains changing their destination mid-journey if there
are service gaps on certain sections, but other stations nontheless
have train describers that manage to cope with this.

I suspect it's all being worked on at the moment anyway and something
like what I speak of above will appear in years to come. I'm sure I've
read somewhere that LU's aspiration is to have the public ETA system
operational on all lines - but it's better if they get it right first
before releasing it.

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:10:29 +0100, Steve Fitzgerald ]
wrote:

In message .com,
Mizter T writes
If Earls Court had modern dot-matrix ETA displays ('train describers'
in LU parlance I believe) that listed the next five or so trains then
one could of course make an educated decision with regards to this
option - but of course Earls Court offers no such luxury.

I guess that given the complexity of Earls Court and perhaps the lack
of certainty over which platform a train will arrive at then this isn't
as simple as it seems, though there could at least be train describers
for each direction (east and west) which only become platform specific
when the train pulls in. Another complication is the possibility of
District line trains changing their destination mid-journey if there
are service gaps on certain sections, but other stations nontheless
have train describers that manage to cope with this.

Isn't the existing TD at ECT listed?

Yes I understand this is the case.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 10 Aug 2006 07:19:08 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

NewsPosting wrote:

The Underground ETA boards don't currently cover the District line, so
there is no way of getting this information. Obviously at Earls Court
you won't get an ETA display either, you just get the destination of
the next train (or the train at the platform) - information about other
services comes at the whim of the station staff annoucing it over the
PA system.

Hmm, puzzling, I'm sure I saw the platform assistant at earls court
look at something that seemed to be indicating train positions on the
line. Unfortunately they didn't show it for long enough for me to see
what info it actually had.

Apols, I could've been clearer - there is no public access (via the
internet) to any District line running information of this sort. There
is of course an internal LU system to keep track of where the trains
are - so perhaps the platform assistant was indeed accessing this
through their PDA.

The system is called Trackernet. It takes its feed from the signalling
system. I believe it forms the basis of the ETA system that is available
via the web. However only a few lines offer full coverage and it is that
which has to be in place for the public ETA system. The system is
available to staff via the LU Intranet.

Trackernet is partially implemented on the sub surface network but there
are several sections that are not yet in place - particularly the
complex junction areas. The same applies with the Piccadilly Line - bits
of info are available but not yet the whole line. I don't know what the
programme dates are for all this being complete and available to the
public although I understand the intention is to provide network wide
coverage. However I would trust that the platform staff at Earls Court
are using their PDA provided information to provide announcements even
though they may only be able to see a part of the line and not all of
it.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:10:29 +0100, Steve Fitzgerald ]
wrote:

In message .com,
Mizter T writes
If Earls Court had modern dot-matrix ETA displays ('train describers'
in LU parlance I believe) that listed the next five or so trains then
one could of course make an educated decision with regards to this
option - but of course Earls Court offers no such luxury.

I guess that given the complexity of Earls Court and perhaps the lack
of certainty over which platform a train will arrive at then this isn't
as simple as it seems, though there could at least be train describers
for each direction (east and west) which only become platform specific
when the train pulls in. Another complication is the possibility of
District line trains changing their destination mid-journey if there
are service gaps on certain sections, but other stations nontheless
have train describers that manage to cope with this.

Isn't the existing TD at ECT listed?

Yes I understand this is the case.


Ok - how about this. The existing listed train describers stay put, but
alongside them there is a new dot-matrix central train describer that
sits on the middle of the eastbound and westbound platforms that
displays the ETAs of trains. When the train pulls into the platform
then the existing train describers would be used - just as they are at
present. The new dot-matrix train describer could also show destination
information along with an arrow indicating which platform this applies
to.

I'm sure some such arrangement could be arrived at, and passengers
would really appreciate it.

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:10:29 +0100, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

In message .com,
Mizter T writes
If Earls Court had modern dot-matrix ETA displays ('train
describers' in LU parlance I believe) that listed the next five
or so trains then one could of course make an educated decision
with regards to this option - but of course Earls Court offers no
such luxury.
[...]

Isn't the existing TD at ECT listed?

Yes I understand this is the case.

But does that mean that LU must use it? Couldn't it be moved to
London's Transport Museum? It may have been high-tech when it was
installed, and it's worth preserving somewhere for that reason, but it
doesn't meet customer expectations or requirements these days.

I've seen so many people confused by it, believing for example that,
because the arrow is pointing to Ealing Broadway, the train at that
platform must be going to all the stations listed in that column (Ealing
B, Wimbledon, Putney Bridge, ...). Remember that you get lots of people
visiting exhibitions at Earl's Court for whom the Underground is quite
confusing enough without a TD of a sort they've never seen before.

It needs a big display showing the destination of the next train on each
platform, and the important intermediate stops, plus a central display
showing how many minutes to wait for subsequent trains (not with
platform numbers, because that might not be known at that stage).

(By the way, I heard someone the other day explaining to his wife on the
westbound District at Earl's Court that because their destination (West
Kensington) was on the left-hand branch of the schematic line diagram on
the platform (which had Earl's Court at the top and the lines running
downwards), the train on that side of the island platform must be going
to West Kensington. Logical in a way. Fortunately I was able to
prevent them boarding the Wimbledon train.)
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:28:00 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:10:29 +0100, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

In message .com,
Mizter T writes
If Earls Court had modern dot-matrix ETA displays ('train
describers' in LU parlance I believe) that listed the next five
or so trains then one could of course make an educated decision
with regards to this option - but of course Earls Court offers no
such luxury.
[...]

Isn't the existing TD at ECT listed?

Yes I understand this is the case.

But does that mean that LU must use it? Couldn't it be moved to
London's Transport Museum? It may have been high-tech when it was
installed, and it's worth preserving somewhere for that reason, but it
doesn't meet customer expectations or requirements these days.

This is not what matters to those people who list buildings or features.
It is deemed to be part of the buildings as far as I know and therefore
has to remain in situ.

I would guess (I certainly don't know) that the listing provisions are
such that electronic displays are not permitted in the vicinity of the
old displays. Given that Earls Court platforms are quite "busy" in
terms of signs and buildings and stairways / lifts there may be very few
options in terms of where new displays could be positioned.

One thing that has set me wondering is that there are the new mobility
impaired lifts and walkways that can hardly be described as "in keeping"
with the remainder of the station so maybe the station is not listed.

Hmmm - I may make some enquiries to see if Metronet are planning to put
in new electronic displays as required under the contract or whether
there is a problem.

(By the way, I heard someone the other day explaining to his wife on the
westbound District at Earl's Court that because their destination (West
Kensington) was on the left-hand branch of the schematic line diagram on
the platform (which had Earl's Court at the top and the lines running
downwards), the train on that side of the island platform must be going
to West Kensington. Logical in a way. Fortunately I was able to
prevent them boarding the Wimbledon train.)

Well that's one way to interpret a diagram I suppose. However it's hard
to understand when you already have a familiarity with how something
like Underground signage works.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:28:00 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:10:29 +0100, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

In message
.com, Mizter
T writes
If Earls Court had modern dot-matrix ETA displays ('train
describers' in LU parlance I believe) that listed the next five
or so trains then one could of course make an educated decision
with regards to this option - but of course Earls Court offers
no such luxury.
[...]

Isn't the existing TD at ECT listed?

Yes I understand this is the case.

But does that mean that LU must use it? Couldn't it be moved to
London's Transport Museum? It may have been high-tech when it was
installed, and it's worth preserving somewhere for that reason,
but it doesn't meet customer expectations or requirements these
days.

This is not what matters to those people who list buildings or
features. It is deemed to be part of the buildings as far as I know
and therefore has to remain in situ.

Up to a point, but there is a case for removing it if it detracts from
the effectiveness of the building. A case in point is the tiling at
Great Portland Street (see other thread), the replacement of which was
supported by English Heritage before being blocked by councillors,
partly because LU/Metronet jumped the gun.

I would guess (I certainly don't know) that the listing provisions
are such that electronic displays are not permitted in the vicinity
of the old displays. Given that Earls Court platforms are quite
"busy" in terms of signs and buildings and stairways / lifts there
may be very few options in terms of where new displays could be
positioned.

One thing that has set me wondering is that there are the new
mobility impaired lifts and walkways that can hardly be described
as "in keeping" with the remainder of the station so maybe the
station is not listed.

It is listed Grade II. (See
http://www.rbkc.gov.uk/Planning/scri...4/1%2052/1#top )
One has rather more freedom with Grade II to change things, though even
with a Grade I building like St Pancras Station, massive changes can be
approved. You are right about the walkways and lifts, which could be
said to impair the view of the TDs -- a good precedent!

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)