Hi folks,

With the recent changes to PAYG Oyster, ATOC has produced an updated
Staff Guide.

It starts of with the basics (What is Oyster? What is an Oyster card?
What is PAYG?), but then gets into the "meat". Here's a few extracts:

quote

*What is the Entry/Exit Charge?*

When a card holder 'touches in' at the start of their Journey an Entry
Charge is debited from the balance on their Oyster card as their
authority to travel - the Entry Charge represent(sic) a "Right to
Travel" and is NOT a ticket. From 19th November 2006, the Entry Charge
will be £5 at the following stations:

London Blackfriars
City Thameslink
Elephant & Castle
London Euston
London Fenchurch Street
London Kings Cross (suburban platforms 9 - 11)
London Liverpool Street
London Bridge
London Marylebone

At all other TOC stations, and all Underground stations the Entry Charge
is £4.

Child PAYG cards will apply a £2.50 Entry / Exit Charge at the £5
stations above and £1 at all other stations.

Remember, different types of Oyster cards charge different prices for
the journey made, BUT the card has this information and when presented
on a reader the correct fare is calculated appropriate to the card type
and journey.

If the card holder fails to touch in correctly at the start of their
journey BUT touches out correctly at the end, their account is debited
£4 (or £5 at the stations listed above).

Cards entitled to a child discount will have a common Entry and Exit
Charge of £2.50.

*Can holders use Oyster PAYG in combination with paper tickets on valid
National Rail services?

NO - Customers should be advised that PAYG cannot be used in conjunction
with any paper ticket. This is because there is no opportunity for the
customer to touch in or touch out at the boundary point on the journey
covered by the paper ticket.

*Are there any time limits to the use of PAYG on Oyster?*

YES. Once a card holder touches in they must touch out within two hours
or the £4/£5 Entry Charge will remain on the card. Once two hours have
expired, any attempt to touch out will be subject to a further charge of
£4/£5 (an Exit Charge).

Please be aware this applies in all circumstances; - for example if a
card holder is delayed due to operating difficulties, customers will
need to contact the Oyster Helpline to explain the cirumstances and
request their card balance be credited accordingly. TfL intend to
implement a change to the Oyster software, which will remove extra
charges resulting from service disruption, at the next time an Oyster
card touches in or out on a reader. In the interim passengers should be
instructed to contact the Oyster helpline to get their card balance amended.

*Can holders using PAYG on Oyster use other modes during service
disruption?*

NO. If a holder touches in correctly, but before reaching their
destination the train service is terminated short of their intended
destination and they decide, or are advised, to seek an alternative mode
or route, they must touch out on exit and start a new pay as you go
journey. Where, for example, a PAYG customer is using a National Rail
service between two stations that accept PAYG, e.g. Walthamstow Central
and London Liverpool Street, and the train is terminated at Hackney
Downs where PAYG is NOT accepted, the customer will be charged £4 as
they have not touched out. In these circumstances they need to contact
the Oyster Helpline to have the fare for the journey they had wished to
undertake deducted from their balance and the £4 or £5 entry
charged(sic) reinstated.

Similarly Oyster PAYG holders whose bus, LUL, DLR or Tramlink journey is
disrupted cannot use PAYG on National Rail services from stations or on
routes that do not accept PAYG. Of course if there is an alternative
National Rail service that does accept Oyster PAYG the holder may start
a new journey by touching in and touching out as in the normal manner.

*FAQs*

*Why is National Rail introducing these charges?*

The Entry and Exit Charges are being introduced on LUL, DLR and Tram
from the 19th November 2006. They are necessary because there are so
many Oyster users who are travelling without touching in and out at the
start and end of their journeys. As a result, revenue is loat which is
unfair to those who pay for their travel. From 19th November 2006, the
Entry Charge will no count towards any of the advertised Oyster price
caps. For consistency, participating National Rail services that accept
Oyster PAYG for travel payment are also introducing the Entry and Exit
Charges.

*How can I be charged the Entry/Exit Charge and a Penalty Fare?*

Your travel is not compliant with National Conditions of Carriage and
the rules for using Oyster PAYG on National Rail and a Penalty Fare is
applied. You should speak to the Oyster Helpline (tel. 0845 330 9876
between 8am and 8pm daily) to get a refund on the Entry/Exit Charge once
you have paid the Penalty Fare in full.

*I have only £2 on my card and cannot use the system*

You can use the system so long as the £2 covers your intended fare. If
you travel beyond the value of £2 you may be liable to a Penalty Fare.

*What happens if I've reached my daily Oyster cap?*

Even if you have reached the daily Oyster cap for the zones you travel
in, you must continue to touch in at the start and out at the end of
each PAYG journey.

An Entry Charge will still be deducted when you start a journey, and
this will be adjusted at the end of the trip, so that you only pay the
fare due for the journey you've just made. If you have already reached a
cap, or are getting close to a cap for all the journeys you have made in
one day, this will be taken in to account when you touch out. If you do
not touch out, the Entry Charge will still be applied in addition to any
cap reached for that day's travel.

If you do not touch in at the start of your journey, you will be liable
for a Penalty Fare and/or prosecution, even if you have already reached
a cap for the London Fare Zones you are travelling in. If you touch out
at the end of your journey without touching in at the start of your
journey, an Exit Charge will be deducted from your card balance and will
not count towards any cap for that day; this is because, unless we know
where your journey started and ended, we do not know whether you have
travelled in additional London Fare Zones.

*What should I do if I can't touch out at the end of my journey?*

There may be times when, for safety reasons, we will instruct you to
leave the station quickly and it may not be possible to touch out.

If you choose to continue your journey by LUL or DLR from a nearby
station or from the same station once the incident has been cleared, we
will have made arrangements so that your previous journey is continued
and you should incur no penalty.

If you do not continue your journey immediately, arrangements will be
put in place so that your Entry Charge is adjusted when you next touch
in at the start of a PAYG journey. Until this happens, the Entry Charge
will remain on your card, and you may have to top-up your card if you
plan to use it on bus or tram journeys. In this circumstance we cannot
guarantee that any daily cap will be taken in to account.

If, as a consequence of the above, you still have an Entry Charge
outstanding due to a station evacuation or service disruption, you
should call the Oyster Helpline on 0845 330 9876 between 8am and 8pm
daily, or visit tfl.gov.uk/oyster.

/quote

Cheers,

Barry

"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...

snip snip snip *FAQs*

*Why is National Rail introducing these charges?*

The Entry and Exit Charges are being introduced on LUL, DLR and Tram from
the 19th November 2006. They are necessary because there are so many
Oyster users who are travelling without touching in and out at the start
and end of their journeys. As a result, revenue is loat which is unfair to
those who pay for their travel. From 19th November 2006, the Entry Charge
will no count towards any of the advertised Oyster price caps. For
consistency, participating National Rail services that accept Oyster PAYG
for travel payment are also introducing the Entry and Exit Charges.

*How can I be charged the Entry/Exit Charge and a Penalty Fare?*

Your travel is not compliant with National Conditions of Carriage and the
rules for using Oyster PAYG on National Rail and a Penalty Fare is
applied. You should speak to the Oyster Helpline (tel. 0845 330 9876
between 8am and 8pm daily) to get a refund on the Entry/Exit Charge once
you have paid the Penalty Fare in full.

*I have only £2 on my card and cannot use the system*

You can use the system so long as the £2 covers your intended fare. If you
travel beyond the value of £2 you may be liable to a Penalty Fare.

*What happens if I've reached my daily Oyster cap?*

Even if you have reached the daily Oyster cap for the zones you travel in,
you must continue to touch in at the start and out at the end of each PAYG
journey.

An Entry Charge will still be deducted when you start a journey, and this
will be adjusted at the end of the trip, so that you only pay the fare due
for the journey you've just made. If you have already reached a cap, or
are getting close to a cap for all the journeys you have made in one day,
this will be taken in to account when you touch out. If you do not touch
out, the Entry Charge will still be applied in addition to any cap reached
for that day's travel.

If you do not touch in at the start of your journey, you will be liable
for a Penalty Fare and/or prosecution, even if you have already reached a
cap for the London Fare Zones you are travelling in. If you touch out at
the end of your journey without touching in at the start of your journey,
an Exit Charge will be deducted from your card balance and will not count
towards any cap for that day; this is because, unless we know where your
journey started and ended, we do not know whether you have travelled in
additional London Fare Zones.

*What should I do if I can't touch out at the end of my journey?*

There may be times when, for safety reasons, we will instruct you to leave
the station quickly and it may not be possible to touch out.

If you choose to continue your journey by LUL or DLR from a nearby station
or from the same station once the incident has been cleared, we will have
made arrangements so that your previous journey is continued and you
should incur no penalty.

If you do not continue your journey immediately, arrangements will be put
in place so that your Entry Charge is adjusted when you next touch in at
the start of a PAYG journey. Until this happens, the Entry Charge will
remain on your card, and you may have to top-up your card if you plan to
use it on bus or tram journeys. In this circumstance we cannot guarantee
that any daily cap will be taken in to account.

If, as a consequence of the above, you still have an Entry Charge
outstanding due to a station evacuation or service disruption, you should
call the Oyster Helpline on 0845 330 9876 between 8am and 8pm daily, or
visit tfl.gov.uk/oyster.

/quote

Cheers,

Barry

Thanks Barry for a very informative post....I Think....
As a regular visitor to London I carry a non-registered Oyster.
I usually keep about a tenner on it which will at least get me in from
Heathrow to the Central Zone.

What is however beginning to concern me is how TfL and the Oyster "People"
appear to be taking an essentially simple system and top loading it with
Technology .

Much of this Technology appears to be required in order to maintain the
often byzantine nature of the National Rail TOC`s Fare systems.

Im reminded of the US Marine Corps dictum of KISS (Keep It Simple,Stupid) as
I rather suspect the great unwashed masses have a fairly low TOT (Tolerance
of Technology) threshold,beyond which they blank-out or,worse still,react
against.

I wonder what the Oyster support Helpline staffing level and workload is
like presently and what the experiences of those "Customers"who are forced
to use its services are ...?

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:40:02 +0000, Barry Salter wrote:

*Can holders using PAYG on Oyster use other modes during service
disruption?*

NO. If a holder touches in correctly, but before reaching their
destination the train service is terminated short of their intended
destination and they decide, or are advised, to seek an alternative mode
or route, they must touch out on exit and start a new pay as you go
journey. Where, for example, a PAYG customer is using a National Rail
service between two stations that accept PAYG, e.g. Walthamstow Central
and London Liverpool Street, and the train is terminated at Hackney
Downs where PAYG is NOT accepted, the customer will be charged £4 as
they have not touched out. In these circumstances they need to contact
the Oyster Helpline to have the fare for the journey they had wished to
undertake deducted from their balance and the £4 or £5 entry
charged(sic) reinstated.

Whaaaat? It would be bad enough (and if it's not illegal, ought to be)
to charge the Walthamstow Central to Hackney Downs fare. But they
actually charge you the full fare to Liverpool Street, even though
they abandoned you at Hackney Downs? If that's really the case then
it's a disgrace.

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:40:02 +0000, Barry Salter
wrote:



*I have only £2 on my card and cannot use the system*

You can use the system so long as the £2 covers your intended fare. If
you travel beyond the value of £2 you may be liable to a Penalty Fare.

Is this right? A couple of months ago LUL were continually announcing
that you would need at least £4 before you could enter the system.

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 01:43:09 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:40:02 +0000, Barry Salter wrote:

*Can holders using PAYG on Oyster use other modes during service
disruption?*

NO. If a holder touches in correctly, but before reaching their
destination the train service is terminated short of their intended
destination and they decide, or are advised, to seek an alternative mode
or route, they must touch out on exit and start a new pay as you go
journey. Where, for example, a PAYG customer is using a National Rail
service between two stations that accept PAYG, e.g. Walthamstow Central
and London Liverpool Street, and the train is terminated at Hackney
Downs where PAYG is NOT accepted, the customer will be charged £4 as
they have not touched out. In these circumstances they need to contact
the Oyster Helpline to have the fare for the journey they had wished to
undertake deducted from their balance and the £4 or £5 entry
charged(sic) reinstated.

Whaaaat? It would be bad enough (and if it's not illegal, ought to be)
to charge the Walthamstow Central to Hackney Downs fare. But they
actually charge you the full fare to Liverpool Street, even though
they abandoned you at Hackney Downs? If that's really the case then
it's a disgrace.

Barry can contradict me here, but I don't think the situation
described precludes you from getting your balance adjusted via the
helpline. It's hard to see how suitable procedures could be devised to
handle all conceivable outbreaks of disruption without opening the
floodgates to the dishonest minority.

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:31:47 +0000, Ken Wheatley
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:40:02 +0000, Barry Salter
wrote:



*I have only £2 on my card and cannot use the system*

You can use the system so long as the £2 covers your intended fare. If
you travel beyond the value of £2 you may be liable to a Penalty Fare.

Is this right? A couple of months ago LUL were continually announcing
that you would need at least £4 before you could enter the system.

Neither are correct unless there is a particular rule for NR Stations. I
provided an explanation in a recent post but here it is again.

You must have the minimum fare on your card that applies at the station
you enter at. For Zone 1 stations that is £1.50 and for Z2-6D that is
£1. The system will deduct £4 at LU stations and £5 on entry but the
card balance can go negative. Whatever the fare you are supposed to pay
is, the card will have value either added back on or further deducted on
entry subject to any applicable caps. This applies to LU, DLR and inter
available NR journeys.

I am not at all aware of any £2 minimum fare unless that applies at NR
stations in Zone 1. None of the publicity or information I have seen has
mentioned that.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Ken Wheatley wrote:
Barry can contradict me here, but I don't think the situation
described precludes you from getting your balance adjusted via the
helpline. It's hard to see how suitable procedures could be devised to
handle all conceivable outbreaks of disruption without opening the
floodgates to the dishonest minority.

Simple: Oyster validators at every single National Rail station inside
the Zones.

Hopefully this will be the case by 2010.

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:35:05 +0000, Ken Wheatley wrote:

*Can holders using PAYG on Oyster use other modes during service
disruption?*

NO. If a holder touches in correctly, but before reaching their
destination the train service is terminated short of their intended
destination and they decide, or are advised, to seek an alternative mode
or route, they must touch out on exit and start a new pay as you go
journey. Where, for example, a PAYG customer is using a National Rail
service between two stations that accept PAYG, e.g. Walthamstow Central
and London Liverpool Street, and the train is terminated at Hackney
Downs where PAYG is NOT accepted, the customer will be charged £4 as
they have not touched out. In these circumstances they need to contact
the Oyster Helpline to have the fare for the journey they had wished to
undertake deducted from their balance and the £4 or £5 entry
charged(sic) reinstated.

Whaaaat? It would be bad enough (and if it's not illegal, ought to be)
to charge the Walthamstow Central to Hackney Downs fare. But they
actually charge you the full fare to Liverpool Street, even though
they abandoned you at Hackney Downs? If that's really the case then
it's a disgrace.

Barry can contradict me here, but I don't think the situation
described precludes you from getting your balance adjusted via the
helpline.

Did you read the guide? The Walthamstow Central to Liverpool Street
fare is charged *by the helpline*, retrospectively, in the full
knowledge that the train company had become unable provide you with
that service and had left you at Hackney Downs to arrange onward
travel at your own expense.

If you last topped up by credit card, you could legitimately do a
chargeback to reclaim the fare. Too bad if you paid cash.

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:56:54 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:31:47 +0000, Ken Wheatley
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 23:40:02 +0000, Barry Salter
wrote:



*I have only £2 on my card and cannot use the system*

You can use the system so long as the £2 covers your intended fare. If
you travel beyond the value of £2 you may be liable to a Penalty Fare.

Is this right? A couple of months ago LUL were continually announcing
that you would need at least £4 before you could enter the system.

Neither are correct unless there is a particular rule for NR Stations. I
provided an explanation in a recent post but here it is again.

You must have the minimum fare on your card that applies at the station
you enter at. For Zone 1 stations that is £1.50 and for Z2-6D that is
£1. The system will deduct £4 at LU stations and £5 on entry but the
card balance can go negative. Whatever the fare you are supposed to pay
is, the card will have value either added back on or further deducted on
entry subject to any applicable caps. This applies to LU, DLR and inter
available NR journeys.

This makes more sense, but doesn't explain why LUL were
loop-announcing something different a few weeks ago.

Maybe someone realised that asking everyone to keep perhaps £2 more
than they need on their PP was a nice little earner, but poor PR.

On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 11:35:05AM +0000, Ken Wheatley wrote:

Barry can contradict me here, but I don't think the situation
described precludes you from getting your balance adjusted via the
helpline.

Is that the helpline that one has to pay to call, and which takes time
to call?

It's hard to see how suitable procedures could be devised to
handle all conceivable outbreaks of disruption without opening the
floodgates to the dishonest minority.

Seems to work OK for paper tickets. If the trains are broken, the
ticket is accepted on relevant bus routes, with no extra fees and no
hassle.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world