Just what's wrong with the service on the Northern Line. I thought
things had really improved over the last few years, but things seem to
be slipping back to the old Misery Line days again.

This evening I tried to get a late Barnet branch train back from Old
Street. Never mind that the High Barnet train was corrected to an
Edgware before it turned up, I did the right thing and changed at
Camden Town. But at Camden I counted FIVE more Edgware trains while
nothing was indicated at all on the Barnet branch. Finally one
appeared - 13 minutes away.

I got the bus instead. This is no good - anyone else think it's
getting worse? Who can we complain to...?

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:08:33 +0100 Bradley H. Davis
said...

I got the bus instead. This is no good - anyone else think it's
getting worse? Who can we complain to...?

Tonight's fiasco was caused by signals failing at King's Cross and then a
little bit later by a signal failure at Euston.

I am sorry you had a terrible journey,

At last, somebody who works for LUL has actually given us the facts and
the decency to make an public apology in this newsgroup when something
went wrong. Thank you!

--
Phil Richards
London, N4

"Bradley H. Davis" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
om...
Just what's wrong with the service on the Northern Line. I thought
things had really improved over the last few years, but things seem to
be slipping back to the old Misery Line days again.

This evening I tried to get a late Barnet branch train back from Old
Street. Never mind that the High Barnet train was corrected to an
Edgware before it turned up, I did the right thing and changed at
Camden Town. But at Camden I counted FIVE more Edgware trains while
nothing was indicated at all on the Barnet branch. Finally one
appeared - 13 minutes away.

I got the bus instead. This is no good - anyone else think it's
getting worse? Who can we complain to...?

Tonight's fiasco was caused by signals failing at King's Cross and then a
little bit later by a signal failure at Euston.

I am sorry you had a terrible journey, and indeed you did the right thing
by
doing the Camden shuffle, however just to let you know that the train
describers are not picking up all the information it needs to indicate the
next three trains. Although the Camden describer on platform 3 showed 13
minutes, I wouldn't have been surprised if a train showed up within five
and
the the describer then flashed " CORRECTION " and displayed the correct
info. This is what was happening at Old Street. The train you saw
advertised
there as " 1 HIGH BARNET x mins" was probably
the
4th or 5th train, the preceding trains were not showing and the system
managed to correct it just as the next train pulled in. The train I was
driving from Tooting Broadway showed up as many weird and wonderful
destinations en route via The City. The only place it was correct was at
Old
Street and displayed the correct destination of Hampstead.

Not an excuse, just some information for you....

I wonder how complicated these signals are and why the same ones fail time
and time again after they have apparently been 'repaired'. For example, the
signals at Totteridge & Whetstone failed two days in a row recently.

I wonder if breaking the Northern line up into smaller sections would help
simplify things. For example just running the following services; Morden to
High Barnet via the City and Kennington to Edgware via Charing Cross (I
believe the trains can easily loop and Kennington on the Charing Cross
branch, correct me if I'm wrong).

Does anyone think this is a good idea?

Thus spake "Ed Crowley"



I wonder if breaking the Northern line up into smaller sections would help
simplify things. For example just running the following services; Morden to
High Barnet via the City and Kennington to Edgware via Charing Cross (I
believe the trains can easily loop and Kennington on the Charing Cross
branch, correct me if I'm wrong).

Does anyone think this is a good idea?

No. Though things might appear simpler this way, people like me do not
like changing trains! I need a seat and almost always get one if
boarding at Burnt Oak. The chances of getting a seat are small if
changing at Camden Town.

Changing trains is a nuisance/deterrent for those with luggage, children
and disabilities, many of whom should be encouraged to use public
transport.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

In article ,
Ed Crowley wrote:
I wonder how complicated these signals are and why the same ones fail time
and time again after they have apparently been 'repaired'. For example, the
signals at Totteridge & Whetstone failed two days in a row recently.

"Signal failures" are usually "track circuit" failures.

The track circuit is the bit of the signalling system that detetects
the presence of a train; they get plumbed into the signal before
that section of track to turn the signal green [1]. They're designed
to fail-safe; ie if it's broke, the signal stays red even if it
could go green (this is considered better than the signal going
green when it should stay red, for obvious reasons).

I'd guess that repeated failures are due to a temporary fix failing
before the perminant fix can get done. Suppose that a track circuit
fails because a bit of wire has rotted. It might take a lot of
time and effort to replace that wire - it might be a couple of km
long! But you could patch the bit that's actually broke quite
quickly, so you do that and add "replace 2km of wire on the northern
line" to the List Of Things To Do Soon. The rest of the wire is
still in poor shape, so you may have more failures until you have
the time to replace it.

[1] For automatic signals, anyway.

I wonder if breaking the Northern line up into smaller sections would help
simplify things. For example just running the following services; Morden to
High Barnet via the City and Kennington to Edgware via Charing Cross (I
believe the trains can easily loop and Kennington on the Charing Cross
branch, correct me if I'm wrong).

These kind of patterns have been tried out in the past (particularly,
IIRC, during peak hours). I don't know how sucessful they've been.

Does anyone think this is a good idea?

No! I'd want High Barnet to somewhere via Charing Cross (because
if I go that far south from FC, it's to go into the west end.)

Helen Deborah Vecht writes
I wonder if breaking the Northern line up into smaller sections would help
simplify things. For example just running the following services; Morden to
High Barnet via the City and Kennington to Edgware via Charing Cross (I
believe the trains can easily loop and Kennington on the Charing Cross
branch, correct me if I'm wrong).

Does anyone think this is a good idea?

No. Though things might appear simpler this way, people like me do not
like changing trains! I need a seat and almost always get one if
boarding at Burnt Oak. The chances of getting a seat are small if
changing at Camden Town.

Changing trains is a nuisance/deterrent for those with luggage,
children and disabilities, many of whom should be encouraged to use
public transport.

Although splitting the Northern line has been mooted on many occasions
in the past - I suppose it reduces the effect of knock-on delays.

I have a vague memory (10+ years ago) of an MP promising that the Tories
would split the Northern line into two.

--
Dave

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:00:07 +0000 (UTC), Mike Bristow
wrote:

In article ,
Ed Crowley wrote:
I wonder how complicated these signals are and why the same ones fail time
and time again after they have apparently been 'repaired'. For example, the
signals at Totteridge & Whetstone failed two days in a row recently.

"Signal failures" are usually "track circuit" failures.

The track circuit is the bit of the signalling system that detetects
the presence of a train; they get plumbed into the signal before
that section of track to turn the signal green [1]. They're designed
to fail-safe; ie if it's broke, the signal stays red even if it
could go green (this is considered better than the signal going
green when it should stay red, for obvious reasons).

I'd guess that repeated failures are due to a temporary fix failing
before the perminant fix can get done. Suppose that a track circuit
fails because a bit of wire has rotted. It might take a lot of
time and effort to replace that wire - it might be a couple of km
long! But you could patch the bit that's actually broke quite
quickly, so you do that and add "replace 2km of wire on the northern
line" to the List Of Things To Do Soon. The rest of the wire is
still in poor shape, so you may have more failures until you have
the time to replace it.

AFAIR, the signalling equipment on the Northern Line north of Camden
Town dates back to the 1940s. At least the kit in the Machine Rooms
does.


You patch, it fails, you patch, it fails....

Get the idea?


Resignalling will cure the problem.

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

In article , Mike Bristow
writes
No! I'd want High Barnet to somewhere via Charing Cross (because
if I go that far south from FC, it's to go into the west end.)

I object. It's obvious to the meanest intelligence that the High Barnet
branch should be served from the Bank branch so that passengers can get
to FC from King's Cross.

--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address

In article , Ed Crowley
writes
I wonder if breaking the Northern line up into smaller sections would help
simplify things. For example just running the following services; Morden to
High Barnet via the City and Kennington to Edgware via Charing Cross (I
believe the trains can easily loop and Kennington on the Charing Cross
branch, correct me if I'm wrong).

Yes, there's a loop on the Charing Cross branch, which is why you often
see K via CX trains but rarely K via Bank ones.

But if you split the line up like that then you'll get a *lot* of
passengers changing at Camden Town and Kennington. The stations probably
aren't up to handing the relevant passenger loads in the peak. It
*might* be possible to fix the former when they completely rebuild it,
but even so it'll be unpopular with the people who now have a change
added to their daily commute.

--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address

Robert Woolley writes
AFAIR, the signalling equipment on the Northern Line north of Camden
Town dates back to the 1940s.

1935-40 New Works Programme? On the Barnet branch at least, everything
north of Archway was new build or converted from an LNER branch line -
so it would have had to been resignalled then.

Resignalling will cure the problem.

I wonder if the current Northern line trains were built to allow for a
future conversion to Central line style automatic train operation.

--
Dave