On 15 Sep, 18:48, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote:

This is a hoary old subject I think but nonetheless, the real
potential benefit of the WLL for avoiding central London would be for
journeys from places on the WCML to places on the south coast. This
wouldn't have to be by through train but instead via a change at say
Watford Junction, Rugby or Milton Keynes Central onto a train via the
WLL to the south.

The last point of course speaks of the bigger problem of meshing two
separate 'networks' - that north of, and that south of the WLL - with
all the attendant problems that occur if a train is late or even
early. And of course the WLL is very busy with freight and hosts an
increasingly popular local passenger service - half-hourly at present
but the plan is for a more frequent service, possibly with some trains
running through beyond Willesden Junction along the North London Line.

Instead of trying to run extra Southern trains in amongst the (current)
Silverlink, why not run a Southern service in the path of a Silverlink to
Northampton, and run a corresponding Silverlink down the WLL? Clearly the
timetables would have to match up, and no doubt pax would scream about not
running to Euston, but presumably a high proportion go on from the terminus
as is usual?


I think I understand your idea - I was somewhat confused by which
Silverlink you meant though, as Silverlink Metro is a rather distinct
operation from Silverlink County - and in the context of what we're on
about then Silverlink Metro operates the WLL stopping service between
Clapham and Willesden Junctions (which are neither in Clapham or
Willesden but I digress) as well as the North London Line, whilst
Silverlink County operates the fast trains up the WCML (all of which
you know already but I'm just clarifying things).

Three fundamental issues with your suggestion - trains from the WCML
that run onto the WLL cannot stop at Willesden Junction as there's no
platforms there on these lines anymore. Thus running a train from the
WCML to the WLL would miss out on picking up all the passengers
waiting at Willesden Jn to go south, of which there are a large
number, and vice-versa pax couldn't use these northbound trains to get
to Willesden Jn. This is no good as in essence the plans are to
increase the frequency of the Junction to Junction service.

Secondly the idea that many Silverlink County pax from WCML stations
would be happy being deposited along the WLL is not right IMO. The WLL
does offer interchange with the District line but I'd be pretty
certain most people weren't heading to this part of town. In addition
there'd then be a less frequent Silverlink County service north from
Euston, which wouldn't be popular.

Thirdly and critically there's always the issue of paving and
conflicts. I think that trains from WCML slow lines to the WLL need to
cross the WCML fast lines on a flat junction, so any such moves block
up the fast lines.

It does feel somewhat like the WLL is this magnificent cross-London
route that has never quite lived up to its potential - however it's
well used by freight trains, and is in demand to play host to more
local passenger trains. Perhaps calling them "local passenger trains"
is misleading people here - the Willesden Jn to Clapham Jn link is a
very well patronised service, and its popularity is growing even
though it remains half-hourly. In addition it is part of the whole
orbirail concept - where lots of orbital rail services are linked up
(phase 2 of the East London Line extension would take it to Clapham
Junction). Whilst any single train service almost certainly wouldn't
complete a whole orbit (i.e. circuit) passengers could nonetheless
easily change from one train to another to complete orbital journeys.

Both the WLL and NLL are very well patronised, so perhaps lamenting
the WLL's lack of fulfilled potential is wrong - it is a critical
piece of fulfilling a successful new orbital rail 'system' for London.


All in all whilst the WLL certainly appears initially to be ripe for
use by cross-London trains, in reality it's all a bit more
complicated. Indeed the current hourly(ish) Southern Watford-CJ-
Gatwich-Brighton service is under threat. The current plans appear to
extend it up to Milton Keynes - which is good, at least with regard to
connecting with WCML trains. However it will also then get truncated
at CJ - which is bad for those heading further south (yes they can
change at CJ, but the benefit to many such passengers is that they
don't have to change - especially those heading for Gatwick, plus the
change at CJ is very awkward up a steep and narrow flight of stairs -
not good with luggage).

The West London Line Group follows developments on both WLL passenger
services (i.e. Southern and Silverlink Metro) - in particular their
latest August newsletter contains details of these possible changes:
http://www.westlondonlinegroup.org.uk/

I think they're already out of date - isn't the latest idea in the South
London RUS to run to at least South Croydon?

Paul S

I don't know to be honest. Perhaps I'll try and pile through the RUS
to find out.

My only observation is that the user's group seems somewhat more
focused on the Southern service than the Silverlink Metro one - but
then again, if the Southern service is under threat, whilst the
Silverlink Metro will be in safe hands as part of London Overground
from November, then I guess they're justifiably focussing their
attentions on what matters.

On 15 Sep, 18:52, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Tom Anderson" wrote:

It would have been handy if, during the building of the Earl's Court
exhibition centre, they'd put in a new station on the WLL underneath it,
and bunged in a foot tunnel to Earl's Court. Still, i suppose West
Brompton - Earl's Court isn't too bad a walk; is it an out-of-station
interchange, as Marylebone/Baker Street?

Surely no need to be because West Brompton has both District line and main
line platforms, and is nearly as close to the Exhibition Centre as Earls
Court station?

Paul S

Yeah, I don't quite understand Tom's comments either - there's no need
for an out-of-station interchange (in terms of ticketing).

West Brompton is right next to the Earls Court Exhibition Centre
anyway - you can walk along Eardley Crescent to get to the front
entrance. The only conceivable time one would get the the District
line to Earls Court if one was heading for the exhibition centre would
be if you'd just got off a southbound WLL train, where there's a cross-
platform change over to the northbound District, and there was a
District line train pulling in. And only then if it was pouring it
down.

On 15 Sep, 21:27, Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Sep, 18:48, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

(snip)

All in all whilst the WLL certainly appears initially to be ripe for
use by cross-London trains, in reality it's all a bit more
complicated. Indeed the current hourly(ish) Southern Watford-CJ-
Gatwich-Brighton service is under threat. The current plans appear to
extend it up to Milton Keynes - which is good, at least with regard to
connecting with WCML trains. However it will also then get truncated
at CJ - which is bad for those heading further south (yes they can
change at CJ, but the benefit to many such passengers is that they
don't have to change - especially those heading for Gatwick, plus the
change at CJ is very awkward up a steep and narrow flight of stairs -
not good with luggage).

The West London Line Group follows developments on both WLL passenger
services (i.e. Southern and Silverlink Metro) - in particular their
latest August newsletter contains details of these possible changes:
http://www.westlondonlinegroup.org.uk/

I think they're already out of date - isn't the latest idea in the South
London RUS to run to at least South Croydon?

Paul S

I don't know to be honest. Perhaps I'll try and pile through the RUS
to find out.


To my shame I realise that I have already asked what the plan was here
and Peter Masson provided an answer, having ploughed through the South
London RUS himself. It seems that running the Southern Watford
Junction/WLL service to South Croydon is the 'preferred option', but
there are other possibilities.

Here's Peter's reply in full:
-----
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.railway/msg/b5d3d9b0a0dbefb7
-----
The South London RUS discusses this. The preferred option now appears
to be
to terminate at South Croydon, using the reversible platform. There
are
options to terminate the Watford Junction service at Clapham Junction,
and
extend the Willesden Junction service to South Croydon (or other
possible
termini).

Peter
-----

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:52:27 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...

It would have been handy if, during the building of the Earl's Court
exhibition centre, they'd put in a new staion on the WLL underneath it,
and bunged in a foot tunnel to Earl's Court. Still, i suppose West
Brompton - Earl's Court isn't too bad a walk; is it an out-of-station
interchange, as Marylebone/Baker Street?


Surely no need to be because West Brompton has both District line and main
line platforms, and is nearly as close to the Exhibition Centre as Earls
Court station?

I would have thought that it was closer. Just across the road and a
small forecourt.
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org

"Terry Harper" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:52:27 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
th.li...

It would have been handy if, during the building of the Earl's Court
exhibition centre, they'd put in a new staion on the WLL underneath it,
and bunged in a foot tunnel to Earl's Court. Still, i suppose West
Brompton - Earl's Court isn't too bad a walk; is it an out-of-station
interchange, as Marylebone/Baker Street?


Surely no need to be because West Brompton has both District line and main
line platforms, and is nearly as close to the Exhibition Centre as Earls
Court station?

I would have thought that it was closer. Just across the road and a
small forecourt.

Its strange, I've often changed from WLL to District there en route to
Wimbledon and vice versa, but I've never been out of the station. Don't
suppose I'm missing much...

Paul

On 16 Sep, 00:10, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Terry Harper" wrote:

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:52:27 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote:

It would have been handy if, during the building of the Earl's Court
exhibition centre, they'd put in a new staion on the WLL underneath it,
and bunged in a foot tunnel to Earl's Court. Still, i suppose West
Brompton - Earl's Court isn't too bad a walk; is it an out-of-station
interchange, as Marylebone/Baker Street?

Surely no need to be because West Brompton has both District line and main
line platforms, and is nearly as close to the Exhibition Centre as Earls
Court station?

I would have thought that it was closer. Just across the road and a
small forecourt.

Its strange, I've often changed from WLL to District there en route to
Wimbledon and vice versa, but I've never been out of the station. Don't
suppose I'm missing much...

Paul

Brompton Cemetery
http://www.royalparks.org.uk/parks/b...tery/about.cfm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brompton_Cemetery

A short walk to get to the heart of Chelsea (Fulham Road, Kings Road
etc). Also a short walk to get to the heart of darkness (Stamford
Bridge stadium).

On Sep 14, 1:41 pm, John B wrote:
On 14 Sep, 10:45, Tom Anderson wrote:

Distance: 186 miles 76 chainsFrom (London) Victoria to Battersea Park, to Clapham Junction, to West

Chains? Are you serious?

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:35:09 -0700, Mizter T
wrote:

I'm far from being an expert on the WCML service pattern but I
understand that Virgin Trains WCML services have significantly cut
down the number of trains that now stop at these stations.

Not yet, but they will do in 2009.

All in all whilst the WLL certainly appears initially to be ripe for
use by cross-London trains, in reality it's all a bit more
complicated. Indeed the current hourly(ish) Southern Watford-CJ-
Gatwich-Brighton service is under threat. The current plans appear to
extend it up to Milton Keynes - which is good, at least with regard to
connecting with WCML trains. However it will also then get truncated
at CJ - which is bad for those heading further south (yes they can
change at CJ, but the benefit to many such passengers is that they
don't have to change - especially those heading for Gatwick, plus the
change at CJ is very awkward up a steep and narrow flight of stairs -
not good with luggage).

I think MK Central to Gatwick would be what you'd want to drag
loadings right up, as Gatwick airport is currently very poorly
accessible by any mode of transport[1] from the north WCML commuter
stations.

[1] Well, if you have luggage... if you don't, train to Euston, Vic
line and GatEx isn't a bad option.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:48:24 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Instead of trying to run extra Southern trains in amongst the (current)
Silverlink, why not run a Southern service in the path of a Silverlink to
Northampton, and run a corresponding Silverlink down the WLL? Clearly the
timetables would have to match up, and no doubt pax would scream about not
running to Euston, but presumably a high proportion go on from the terminus
as is usual?

How easy would it be to install shoegear on a few Desiros and
portion-work it, splitting at Harrow and Wealdstone, I wonder? Main
issue would be it couldn't call at Bletchley if you were doing 8 to
London and 4 to the WLL, as the up slow is too short due to there
being junctions at both ends.

I don't think replacing a SS out of Euston with a WLL train would be a
good idea, as it would necessarily bring a reduction in capacity, and
that wouldn't be popular with peak-time travellers as Silverlink is
(ssh) one of the few London commuter operators where there is not a
problem of severe overcrowding.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 16 Sep, 10:11, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:35:09 -0700, Mizter T
wrote:

I'm far from being an expert on the WCML service pattern but I
understand that Virgin Trains WCML services have significantly cut
down the number of trains that now stop at these stations.

Not yet, but they will do in 2009.

Thanks for the info. I presume it's all part of the drive to improve
journey times between Euston and major city destinations on the WCML.


All in all whilst the WLL certainly appears initially to be ripe for
use by cross-London trains, in reality it's all a bit more
complicated. Indeed the current hourly(ish) Southern Watford-CJ-
Gatwich-Brighton service is under threat. The current plans appear to
extend it up to Milton Keynes - which is good, at least with regard to
connecting with WCML trains. However it will also then get truncated
at CJ - which is bad for those heading further south (yes they can
change at CJ, but the benefit to many such passengers is that they
don't have to change - especially those heading for Gatwick, plus the
change at CJ is very awkward up a steep and narrow flight of stairs -
not good with luggage).

I think MK Central to Gatwick would be what you'd want to drag
loadings right up, as Gatwick airport is currently very poorly
accessible by any mode of transport[1] from the north WCML commuter
stations.

[1] Well, if you have luggage... if you don't, train to Euston, Vic
line and GatEx isn't a bad option.


I've just delved in to the South London RUS, and it pretty much rules
out the continuation of any through WLL services from the WCML through
to Gatwick - so that means curtailing the current hourly-ish Southern
service.

It is in favour of additional WLL services down to "the Croydon area"
calling at all stations on the Norbury line, recognising that there is
a suppressed demand for such journeys - however it focusses on
suburban journeys rather than airport journeys, which I guess makes
some sense as that would be more the remit of the Brighton Mail Line
RUS (which I haven't read any of). The South London RUS is however
somewhat dismissive of running such trains down to Gatwick:
(a) because of capacity constraints at Gatwick
(b) because the further they go the busier they'll be and they will
only be 4-car trains - I think because of the short platforms at
Clapham Junction
(c) because it thinks it inappropriate to mix airport traffic with
suburban traffic - because of the two different types of passenger,
one going longer distance with much luggage, the other making local
journeys.

I've certainly seen grateful passengers using the Southern service
south from Olympia, whether joining there or already on the train. I
say they are grateful as several appear to be heading for the airport
and the train takes them all the way, whilst others are grateful of
avoiding a cross-London journey and staying on one to get to the south
coast. It would seem the writing on the wall for these trains. Shame,
but it appears that the analysis concludes the competing demands are
too great for such services to continue.