On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, John Rowland wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, John Rowland wrote:

Pyromancer wrote:
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as John
Rowland gently breathed:

That is a terrible reason to make a road one-way. Suppose that you
lived at the north end of Judd Street and visited your girlfriend in
Chalton Street regularly - would you still think that the above
constituted a good reason to make Judd Street s/b only?

But should you be using a motor vehicle for such a short trip anyway?

That depends on the time of day, how much stuff you have to bring,
whether you've got 4000 pounds in your pocket, whether you're a
national hate figure etc. Or maybe you're delivery man who has to make
deliveries at Judd St and Chalton Street.

We should get a count of the number of such people, and of the number
of people coming south out of Midland Road and wanting to turn right,
so that we can do a cost-benefit analysis.

So we should ban every possible human action unless enough voters want to do
it?

What?

What i'm implying is that the number of people inconvenienced by making
Judd St one-way (those burdened with freight, cash, infamy, etc) would be
smaller than the number of people convenienced (those heading east from
Midland Rd). If that's true, or rather if, taking into account the degree
of conveniencing and inconveniencing, the net convenience is positive,
then making Judd St one-way would be a Good Thing. Perhaps it's not, and
it seems likely that it's not a big deal either way, and in either of
those cases, it would be a Bad Thing, or at least a Meh Thing. It all
depends on the actual numbers.

Are you a New Labour cabinet member by any chance?

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

tom

--
Everyone in the world is doing something without me.

Tom Anderson wrote:

What i'm implying is that the number of people inconvenienced by
making Judd St one-way (those burdened with freight, cash, infamy,
etc) would be smaller than the number of people convenienced (those
heading east from Midland Rd). If that's true, or rather if, taking
into account the degree of conveniencing and inconveniencing, the net
convenience is positive, then making Judd St one-way would be a Good
Thing. Perhaps it's not, and it seems likely that it's not a big deal
either way, and in either of those cases, it would be a Bad Thing, or
at least a Meh Thing.

No, it wouldn't be a Meh thing. Introducing new legal restrictions which
will make it harder for people to just do what they like should only be done
as a last resort if the arguments for it are compelling.

Pedestrians are presumably more likely to be run over in one-way roads (I
take a few of them out every time I drive past Camden Lock) and even for
aware pedestrians, crossing a one way road is more difficult than crossing a
2-way road of the same width. Judd Street contains the HQ of the RNIB and so
possibly has more blind pedestrians than any other road in Britain.

Anyone who misunderstands the signs on a one-way road is quite likely to
have a head-on collision. Councils in Central London cannot be trusted to
sign one way roads properly. For example, it was possible to turn right from
Guilford St into Herbrand Street and then left into Bernard St (which is
supposed to be one way the other way) without passing any prohibition signs.
The signs weren't removed, they just hadn't been put up. Hopefully they've
fixed it since I told them about it, but since they're a Labour council,
maybe not. (I've spent 3 months or so trying to get an answer from Islington
about the death trap that they or TfL have recently created at Angel, and I
believe someone who doesn't speak a word of English would get a free house
out of them quicker.) The same lethal lack of signage occurs at Hoxton
Square, West Square, Victoria Square etc etc etc. This problem doesn't seem
to happen in the suburbs. It's as if the road network in Zone 1 is so dense
and confusing that even TPTB can't keep track of which roads are one-way and
which roads are two-way.

Anyway, you still haven't given a single reason why traffic shouldn't turn
left from Judd St into Euston Road.

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

there seems to be another pick up further down for Eurostar.

I don;t think so.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

And pushbike! How about buses? Until recently, they were going that
way too, but now i think about it, i don't recall seeing any
yesterday or this morning on my way to work.

The 45 and 63 now use Midland Road I see. There are northbound buses in
Pancras Road though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(John Rowland) wrote:

Judd Street

I have a feeling that Camden had a scheme to restrict traffic in Judd St.
Must ask the work colleague who is a Camden Councillor what happened to
it.

you can't do a right turn to Euston Road from Upper Woburn Place

Can't you go ahead, right, right and left to achieve that?

None of these difficulties would trouble you on a bike of course. :-)

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Pyromancer) wrote:

I believe part of the advertising for St Pancras as a destination
in it's own right is that people will be able to watch the trains
come and go. Of course this will require the various shops,
station staff, etc. not to stick tacky paper signs and notices all
over the glass walls.

The champagne bar seems to stretch along much of platform 5.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article .com,
(Mizter T) wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7080278.stm

The opening will happen this evening (not least because Bettie is a
bit tied up giving a speech at some riverside club house during the
day).

And blocking the road outside for a fortnight. :-(

I managed to have a quick look inside and around St P yesterday
lunchtime (whilst waiting at KX for someone who, courtesy of an inept
communications breakdown, wasn't on the train they should've been on -
grrr!).

I was there on a tour on Saturday (outside the Eurostar areas) and on the
IVT today. The lighting rigs for the Royal opening were there on Saturday
and the opening stone was there today, though in what looks somewhat like
a temporary location, not attached to a wall, that's for sure.

I see now that the Midland mainline platform-level concourse and
platforms offer a pretty good view across the whole Barlow trainshed
now that the hoardings have largely come down and been replaced with
glass walls. The roof is splendid, lots of light coming through so
quite a change from the dingy St P of old.

Indeed so.

From this position one also gets a good view across the Eurostar
platforms - yesterday occupied by a just-arrived Eurostar train and
also a CTRL-DS (aka Javelin) train, coupled to an EWS Class 60 (I
think). The CTRL-DS train was quite far up the long platforms (towards
the country end) so I couldn't see if it was top and tailed, but I did
wonder if there was the necessary trackwork in the Eurostar platforms
for a loco to run around a train and escape.

The Javelin wasn't in the domestic platforms then?

There was also quite a bit of lighting kit being set up for the grand
opening 'show' this evening - there were several lighting rigs
attached to the roof, and several more ground-level spotlights on the
platforms, plus a couple of massive screens hanging from the roof too.

They were still there today. On returning from the last of three IVT
trips to Stratford International they were showing the view along the
tracks from the buffer stops of platform 7 (IIRC). Earlier they were
dark.

Coming up the escalators to the Midland mainline concourse there were
a couple of large black drapes hanging from the ceiling. After a bit
of consideration I decided these were perhaps in place principally to
stop the light show from distracting the arriving MML drivers as hey
came into the platforms - as there was no indication that the Midland
mainline part of the station was going to close for this event.

It wasn't clear to our guide on Saturday exactly what they were supposed
to be screening from whom. They were still there today.

Of curse, the Midland Mainline platforms were very quiet today, with just
five trains to Derby timetabled all day. I didn't see any sign of signs
being ready to be altered for the franchise change on Sunday either. Talk
about timing, though!

[snip]

Whilst the trainshed part of the station appears nearly finished, the
undercroft areas would still appear to be requiring a fair bit more
work - it is however hard to tell, given that there's no public access
to these areas. There were lots of workmen wearing hi-vis jackets
stating "Retail fit-out", so perhaps things are nearing completion.
Still plenty of other workmen around the place beavering away at this
and that though.

They were still working away furiously today. The M&S Food shop looked
even more skeletal than normal. They also have to remove the enclosed
scaffold from the opening ceremony which was still obstructing much of
the area open to the public at street level today.

A couple of other points of potential interest.

[snip]

The other is that the surrounding roads are now open as of Saturday
3rd November (so the sign said). As far as I could see (but I may have
got it wrong) Pancras Road is fully open for two-way traffic all the
way from Euston Road up to the Goods Way / Camley Street junction, and
Midland Road is open for one-way southbound traffic into Euston Road.
The taxi rank is now on Midland Road, and that's now the taxi drop-off
point as well (as opposed to the old location on Pancras Road).

They did actually open on Saturday. The taxi lane in Midland Road outside
the mainline entrance was still incomplete today.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article ,
(John Rowland) wrote:

Judd Street

I have a feeling that Camden had a scheme to restrict traffic in Judd
St. Must ask the work colleague who is a Camden Councillor what
happened to it.

you can't do a right turn to Euston Road from Upper Woburn Place

Can't you go ahead, right, right and left to achieve that?

I believe so. That adds 1 mile to the current journey, and an extra five
sets of traffic lights, I think. It would be better to go via Mabledon Place
and Ossulston Street.

None of these difficulties would trouble you on a bike of course. :-)

Not unless they made the pavement one-way too.

On 8 Nov, 02:08, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Pyromancer wrote:
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as John
Rowland gently breathed:

That is a terrible reason to make a road one-way. Suppose that you
lived at the north end of Judd Street and visited your girlfriend in
Chalton Street regularly - would you still think that the above
constituted a good reason to make Judd Street s/b only? Bear in mind
that there no left turn out of Mabledon Place, and you can't get out
Dukes Road either, and I don't think the right turn from Tavistock
Place to Tavistock Sq is allowed, and you can't do a right turn to
Euston Road from Upper Woburn Place or Gordon Street.

But should you be using a motor vehicle for such a short trip anyway?

That depends on the time of day, how much stuff you have to bring, whether
you've got 4000 pounds in your pocket, whether you're a national hate figure
etc. Or maybe you're delivery man who has to make deliveries at Judd St and
Chalton Street. Or you live in Judd Street and car-pool with someone who
lives in Chalton Street.


I've got to say those just aren't good enough reasons in my book to
prevent a road becoming one-way. If they were then there'd be no one-
way streets, prohibited turns or other traffic restrictions anywhere
in any town, and traffic would grind to a complete shuddering halt.

I find the inclusion of 'national hate figure' in that list quite
bizarre too!

In article ,
(John Rowland) wrote:

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article ,
(John Rowland) wrote:

Judd Street

I have a feeling that Camden had a scheme to restrict traffic in Judd
St. Must ask the work colleague who is a Camden Councillor what
happened to it.

you can't do a right turn to Euston Road from Upper Woburn Place

Can't you go ahead, right, right and left to achieve that?

I believe so. That adds 1 mile to the current journey, and an extra
five sets of traffic lights, I think. It would be better to go via
Mabledon Place and Ossulston Street.

None of these difficulties would trouble you on a bike of course.
:-)

Not unless they made the pavement one-way too.

Nowt to do with it. I use Whidbourne St and Argyle St to reach King's
Cross/St Pancras.

--
Colin Rosenstiel