On Jul 11, 2:19*pm, " wrote:

On Jul 11, 2:01 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:39 pm, " wrote:

[snip]

I've just realised the implication of what the previous reply means: I
can effectively travel around the WHOLE Underground system all day for
8, and no need to restrict myself to Zones 1 and 2.

Actually, that's quite a bargain!

Erm, as soon as you're first journey 'times out', then I think
essentially you'd be travelling without a properly validated Oyster
card, and thus possibly subject to a Penalty Fare should your ticket
(i.e. Oyster card) be checked. I haven't however scrutinised the
chapter and verse of the Oyster card T&Cs and the TfL Conditions of
Carriage. I dunno. They might however just think you're a bit mad!

Where, on entry to the system, am I told that I will be subject to a
penalty if I don't exit the system within a period of time? Supposing
I fell asleep on a station or train? I am content to accept that I
would have to pay the 4 on entry and 4 on exit - I understand why
that is. But on what basis could it properly be said that I have
somehow not "validated" my Oyster card by simply remaining within the
system?

What would I be supposed to do? Exit at a station and re-enter every
couple of hours?

I don't care if they think I'm mad! I've already been thrown off a
train at Birmingham for taking a photograph of a train! That is the
subject of current legal action against Network Rail. But I'm damned
if by simply travelling around on the Underground, having validly
touched in on entry, I will somehow be penalised for failing to do
something they have not told me I should be doing!

Sorry, chill, I was merely speculating, nothing more than that!

On reflection I do very much doubt you'd be given a penalty fare for
simply having been within the system for ages - the handheld Oyster
card scanners can tell when (and where - though possibly only the more
complicated ones) the card was last validated. I'm just thinking that
an RPI would probably take an interest if you were on a westbound
(central London-bound) District line train at say Mile End, having
validated your card several hours beforehand in say Amersham.

But ultimately I don't think they're that interested in persecuting
people who are 'bashing' the network (which is something of an 'edge
case' in the big scheme of things), I think they're more interested in
going after people who are somehow 'working the system'. Whether
bashing the network by staying within the system all day qualifies as
'working the system' I dunno!

I can't really comment any further, apart from saying that I don't
work for TfL nor do I have any involvement in the Oyster system. All I
would say is that the recommendation I'd give to anyone who simply
wanted to ride great chunks of the network without leaving it would be
for them to get a Day Travelcard, which means one sidesteps any such
Oyster issues.

On Jul 11, 2:43�pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 11, 2:19�pm, " wrote:





On Jul 11, 2:01 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:39 pm, " wrote:

[snip]

I've just realised the implication of what the previous reply means: I
can effectively travel around the WHOLE Underground system all day for
8, and no need to restrict myself to Zones 1 and 2.

Actually, that's quite a bargain!

Erm, as soon as you're first journey 'times out', then I think
essentially you'd be travelling without a properly validated Oyster
card, and thus possibly subject to a Penalty Fare should your ticket
(i.e. Oyster card) be checked. I haven't however scrutinised the
chapter and verse of the Oyster card T&Cs and the TfL Conditions of
Carriage. I dunno. They might however just think you're a bit mad!

Where, on entry to the system, am I told that I will be subject to a
penalty if I don't exit the system within a period of time? Supposing
I fell asleep on a station or train? I am content to accept that I
would have to pay the 4 on entry and 4 on exit - I understand why
that is. But on what basis could it properly be said that I have
somehow not "validated" my Oyster card by simply remaining within the
system?

What would I be supposed to do? Exit at a station and re-enter every
couple of hours?

I don't care if they think I'm mad! I've already been thrown off a
train at Birmingham for taking a photograph of a train! That is the
subject of current legal action against Network Rail. But I'm damned
if by simply travelling around on the Underground, having validly
touched in on entry, I will somehow be penalised for failing to do
something they have not told me I should be doing!

Sorry, chill, I was merely speculating, nothing more than that!

On reflection I do very much doubt you'd be given a penalty fare for
simply having been within the system for ages - the handheld Oyster
card scanners can tell when (and where - though possibly only the more
complicated ones) the card was last validated. I'm just thinking that
an RPI would probably take an interest if you were on a westbound
(central London-bound) District line train at say Mile End, having
validated your card several hours beforehand in say Amersham.

But ultimately I don't think they're that interested in persecuting
people who are 'bashing' the network (which is something of an 'edge
case' in the big scheme of things), I think they're more interested in
going after people who are somehow 'working the system'. Whether
bashing the network by staying within the system all day qualifies as
'working the system' I dunno!

I can't really comment any further, apart from saying that I don't
work for TfL nor do I have any involvement in the Oyster system. All I
would say is that the recommendation I'd give to anyone who simply
wanted to ride great chunks of the network without leaving it would be
for them to get a Day Travelcard, which means one sidesteps any such
Oyster issues.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, I'm only taking things to their ultimate, ludicrous, conclusion,
because that's what lawyers do!

But, I should have mentioned (as I think I have before, on another
thread) that my local newsagent professes not to sell One Day
Travelcards, and will only top-up Oysters! So, to get a paper ticket,
I'd have to spend 1 Pound my Oyster to get to the nearest station, so
my loss would actually be �1.50 overall.

As for the Oyster telephone refund: I spent almost 30 minutes in the
telephone queue, then almost another 30 whilst the Oyster chap tried
to work out how I could get a refund by some method other than
touching in at a station (something I can rarely predict in advance
because of the nature of my journeys - in fact I hardly ever use the
Underground at all) and then getting my bank account details wrong
etc, so having to start all over again.....

Marc.

Mr Thant wrote:
[Interesting but ultimately irrelevent explanation deleted] and the user is charged a £4 unstarted journey
fee.

Is there any statutory basis for this penalty? The recent furore about
penalties for unauthorised overdrafts has brought up an important point
which is that consumer contracts essentially aren't allowed to contain
provisions that permit the service provider to 'fine' the consumer -
they can only charge the consumer the actual reasonable administrative
costs incurred as a result of the consumer's breach of contract.

Even assuming the byelaws provide a suitable statutory basis, if TfL
become aware that their system sometimes charges people this penalty
incorrectly, and they continue to levy the 'fine' with that knowledge,
it seems to me TfL would probably be acting illegally, perhaps even
fraudulently.

I suggest that Mizter T and Mr Thant communicate their observations
about the behaviour of the system to TfL, to ensure they can't rely on a
defense that they were unaware of this 'bug' in their software.

-roy

On 11 July, 17:28, Roy Badami wrote:
Is there any statutory basis for this penalty? *The recent furore about
penalties for unauthorised overdrafts has brought up an important point
which is that consumer contracts essentially aren't allowed to contain
provisions that permit the service provider to 'fine' the consumer -
they can only charge the consumer the actual reasonable administrative
costs incurred as a result of the consumer's breach of contract.

TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that there's
a discount from this for using the system correctly (touching in and
out in the specified time, etc). Since the price of a single ticket is
indeed £4, I can't imagine a challenge would be too successful.

U

Mr Thant wrote:
TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that there's
a discount from this for using the system correctly (touching in and
out in the specified time, etc). Since the price of a single ticket is
indeed £4, I can't imagine a challenge would be too successful.

But if they unilaterally decide to treat two separate journeys as one,
even though you've used the system correctly, just so they can then
penalise you for taking too long on this one journey that they've
decided to deem that you made, I think the situation changes.

Imagine for a moment that the system wasn't automated, but clerks in
each station levied fares according to the current Oyster pricing - then
you'd agree that TfL were acting fraudulently if they deliberately
behaved thus, yes?

Now, the fact that the software behaves that doesn't mean the software
is committing fraud - that would be nonsensical. But if TfL are aware
that their software is behaving in this manner, and do nothing, are you
saying that TfL can carry on with impunity.

I confess, in my naivite, I've never actually checked the journey logs
on my Oyster card - I'd just assumed that they wouldn't - couldn't
legally - go around overcharging people.

-roy

Mizter T wrote:

The fact that refunds are available for erroneous Oyster charges is no
secret at all, it is mentioned in plenty of TfL publicity and LU staff
will readily refer you to Oyster customer services if you have
concerns about overcharging.

The fact that the system is designed to levy erroneous charges is news
to me, though (and I suspect other occasional Oyster users, too).

If I were to enter a station and then leave without travelling, I would,
naively, expect one of two things to happen:

(1) My card operates the gate and doesn't charge me anything, having
understood that I haven't made a journey; or

(2) The system doesn't understand what has happened, so my card doesn't
operate the gate and instead flashes up "Seek Assistance".

What I would not, naively, expect is that the gate pretends to do (1)
but in fact charges me an (AFIACT) unpublished fee for failing to make a
journey.

I'm quite sure that this is due to poor design rather than malice on the
part of TfL, but that doesn't make it right.

-roy

On 11 July, 17:40, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 11 July, 17:28, Roy Badami wrote:

Is there any statutory basis for this penalty? *The recent furore about
penalties for unauthorised overdrafts has brought up an important point
which is that consumer contracts essentially aren't allowed to contain
provisions that permit the service provider to 'fine' the consumer -
they can only charge the consumer the actual reasonable administrative
costs incurred as a result of the consumer's breach of contract.

TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that there's
a discount from this for using the system correctly (touching in and
out in the specified time, etc). Since the price of a single ticket is
indeed £4, I can't imagine a challenge would be too successful.

U

But the cash fare only went up to £4 to coerce people to use Oyster.
It was not the existing cash fare, so they can't really argue that
one. Or is that the real reason why they didn't charge the maximum
for unresolved journeys straight away, ie to be able to argue that
that the maximum cash fare existed first?

On Jul 11, 5:40*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 11 July, 17:28, Roy Badami wrote:

Is there any statutory basis for this penalty? *The recent furore about
penalties for unauthorised overdrafts has brought up an important point
which is that consumer contracts essentially aren't allowed to contain
provisions that permit the service provider to 'fine' the consumer -
they can only charge the consumer the actual reasonable administrative
costs incurred as a result of the consumer's breach of contract.

TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that there's
a discount from this for using the system correctly (touching in and
out in the specified time, etc). Since the price of a single ticket is
indeed £4, I can't imagine a challenge would be too successful.

U

Just to point out that the "maximum cash fare" is different when using
National Rail and here £6.50 is charged upon entry to the system, with
correction to the 'real' Oyster fare upon exit. This is less than the
maximum cash fare for Watford Junction - Euston.

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:40:46 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant
wrote:

TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that there's
a discount from this for using the system correctly (touching in and
out in the specified time, etc). Since the price of a single ticket is
indeed £4, I can't imagine a challenge would be too successful.

Prompted by this I looked up the fare tables and zone maps; travelling
from Canary Wharf to Paddington I could save significantly by avoiding
zone 1. Warwick Avenue (0.8 miles from Paddington) or St John's Wood
(2 miles but on the Jubilee so no change) are in zone 2, but the
journey to either would involve overground. Is there a touch
necessary during transfer to overground? I am guessing TPTB are not
so dim as to assume that alighting in zone 2 means you got there
without passing through the centre, when journeys avoiding zone 1 are
very much the long way round.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

On Jul 11, 10:02�pm, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:40:46 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant

wrote:
TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that there's
a discount from this for using the system correctly (touching in and
out in the specified time, etc). Since the price of a single ticket is
indeed �4, I can't imagine a challenge would be too successful.

Prompted by this I looked up the fare tables and zone maps; travelling
from Canary Wharf to Paddington I could save significantly by avoiding
zone 1. �Warwick Avenue (0.8 miles from Paddington) or St John's Wood
(2 miles but on the Jubilee so no change) are in zone 2, but the
journey to either would involve overground. �Is there a touch
necessary during transfer to overground? �I am guessing TPTB are not
so dim as to assume that alighting in zone 2 means you got there
without passing through the centre, when journeys avoiding zone 1 are
very much the long way round.

Guy
--http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

And that's another thing that's been bothering me: if I travel from
Zone 2 to Zone 3 (e.g. Fulham Broadway to Stratford), does the Oyster
system assume I have travelled via Zone 1, when it is possible to do
that journey without entering Zone 1 at all? If so, why should I be
penalised in that way?

Marc.