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Old February 16th 10, 01:22 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On Feb 16, 1:59*pm, MIG wrote:

On 16 Feb, 13:29, Mizter T wrote:

[big snip]


I should add that I don't think TOC RPIs should go around zealously
enforcing this - if the Travelcard is valid between the origin station
and destination station then I reckon that should be deemed a-ok. If a
passenger is travelling outwith their zonal validity however then they
do need to touch in (and notionally at least get hold of an OEP too,
but regardless of that they should touch in) - it sounds as though the
passenger in question didn't do so, and they were making a journey
from within their Travelcard's zonal validity (Euston) to outside of
it (Watford Jn).


That's what I originally assumed, hence my interest. *But as I said to
Neil, this led to a conversation where LM staff insisted that you'd
have to get off and touch in if you had a season ticket stored on
Oyster and were travelling from outside. *Total confusion reigns.

It may well have been an OEP situation, but he implied that it wasn't
and that the season was valid for the journey.

Can one get a season to Watford Junction stored on Oyster anyway? *I
think that would settle that point, but not explain the things that
were said. *I wonder if the conversation would have been different on
a journey to Harrow and Wealdstone on a train that stopped there?


No, I'm 99.9% sure one can't - rail-only seasons aren't available on
Oyster, nor are outboundary Travelcard seasons.

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Old February 16th 10, 01:33 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On Feb 16, 3:22*pm, Mizter T wrote:

No, I'm 99.9% sure one can't - rail-only seasons aren't available on
Oyster, nor are outboundary Travelcard seasons.


So the only valid way to do it is to use PAYG to extend the Travelcard
(unless he also held a paper extension), and the only valid way to do
that is to touch in.

Thus the RPI was correct and a PF could legitimately have been
charged, but he used the wrong justification for being correct.

Neil
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Old February 16th 10, 01:44 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On 16 Feb, 14:22, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 16, 1:59*pm, MIG wrote:



On 16 Feb, 13:29, Mizter T wrote:


[big snip]


I should add that I don't think TOC RPIs should go around zealously
enforcing this - if the Travelcard is valid between the origin station
and destination station then I reckon that should be deemed a-ok. If a
passenger is travelling outwith their zonal validity however then they
do need to touch in (and notionally at least get hold of an OEP too,
but regardless of that they should touch in) - it sounds as though the
passenger in question didn't do so, and they were making a journey
from within their Travelcard's zonal validity (Euston) to outside of
it (Watford Jn).


That's what I originally assumed, hence my interest. *But as I said to
Neil, this led to a conversation where LM staff insisted that you'd
have to get off and touch in if you had a season ticket stored on
Oyster and were travelling from outside. *Total confusion reigns.


It may well have been an OEP situation, but he implied that it wasn't
and that the season was valid for the journey.


Can one get a season to Watford Junction stored on Oyster anyway? *I
think that would settle that point, but not explain the things that
were said. *I wonder if the conversation would have been different on
a journey to Harrow and Wealdstone on a train that stopped there?


No, I'm 99.9% sure one can't - rail-only seasons aren't available on
Oyster, nor are outboundary Travelcard seasons.


You can from most Oyster enabled ticket machines. On National Rail
machines it is referred to as Zone 10 (with no mention of Zone W or
Watford Junction)
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Old February 16th 10, 01:50 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On Feb 16, 1:50*pm, MIG wrote:

On 16 Feb, 13:20, Mizter T wrote:
[snip]
Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-....


[snip verbatim quote of clauses 3.6 and 3.8]


Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6
to 3.8. *Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement.


Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a
specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes
where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on
the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one
is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR).


I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for
inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed


If having to touch in with Oyster travelcards really was strictly
enforced, then there are two issues.

Firstly, it would be a rule invented purely for the purpose of
penalising people for breaking a rule, when no fares are being
evaded. *I look forward to seeing such things tested in court.

Secondly, it would change the NRCoC, and I don't see how TfL or any
other operator can do that. *Specifically, it would render a season
ticket invalid if stored on Oyster and used in combination with
another ticket from outside of its validity.


I suppose they might say that's covered by this in clause 3.6: "You
can still use your Oyster card at stations where there is no yellow
card reader or if it is not working provided that your Travelcard is
valid for the journey you are making." - the Travelcard being valid as
a result of its combination with another ticket.

The NRCoC does also contain a reference to the separate conditions
that apply to electronic tickets (in clause A.1). If the NRCoC and
conditions that apply to an electronic ticket say different things,
there doesn't appear to be anything which grants either of them
primacy over the other.

Note that I'm absolutely not saying that I think TfL has any intention
to restrict the use of Travelcards on Oyster in combination with other
tickets for journeys beyond the zonal validity of that Travelcard.


So, despite my many misgivings about Oyster, I will be more charitable
than you and stick with the assumption that the exhortations to touch
in are purely practical, to keep people in the habit of doing so, in
case of problems in the situations when they need to.


I don't quite get where your coming from re the "charitable" comment?
I merely referred to what's actually stated in the conditions of use
of Oyster on NR.

FWIW, I agree that the 'always touch-in & touch-out' message is indeed
practical, but technically speaking it is backed up by the Oyster
conditions of use (both on NR and TfL services), which furthermore do
not preclude combining Travelcards on Oyster with other tickets.

OK, there is a bit of a muddle where a passenger combines a season
Travelcard with a paper ticket for travel within the zones, i.e. in
such cases they actively shouldn't touch in/out at a station where
they are using that paper ticket. However I doubt too many people will
combine say a zone 1&2 Travelcard season with a paper Day Travelcard
for zones 2-6, or a paper rail-only season, or a paper extension fare
- w.r.t. the latter, I suppose Gold Card holders might well do so,
given that the GC discounted fare is possibly less than the Oyster
PAYG fare for the extension, and I suppose Network Railcard holders
could too (weekends only because of the minimum fare), and ultra-
diligent pax who couldn't get hold of an OEP before travel because the
ticket office or ticket machines didn't offer them (but in these cases
the ticket office clerk seems to just tell pax that it's not a problem
and to go-ahead and travel anyway).

Most pax with Travelcards loaded on Oyster who are extending journeys
outside the zonal validity of their Travelcard, but nonetheless to
destinations within the zones, will just use Oyster PAYG to
automagically pay the extension fare (with or without an OEP).


And let's face it: until someone comes up with a definition of
"journey", none of the TfL stuff has any meaning at all.


Any RPI that sought to PF someone with a Travelcard on Oyster for not
touching-in when they're within their zonal validity would be a moron.
They would technically be within their rights to ask the pax to touch-
in next time though, I suppose.
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Old February 16th 10, 01:54 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On Feb 16, 2:44*pm, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

On 16 Feb, 14:22, Mizter T wrote:

On Feb 16, 1:59*pm, MIG wrote:
[snip]
Can one get a season to Watford Junction stored on Oyster anyway? *I
think that would settle that point, but not explain the things that
were said. *I wonder if the conversation would have been different on
a journey to Harrow and Wealdstone on a train that stopped there?


No, I'm 99.9% sure one can't - rail-only seasons aren't available on
Oyster, nor are outboundary Travelcard seasons.


You can from most Oyster enabled ticket machines. On National Rail
machines it is referred to as Zone 10 (with no mention of Zone W or
Watford Junction)


OK, well perhaps I'm 99.9% wrong!

I recall seeing zone 10 mentioned now on an NR ticket machine, I think
I pondered at the time whether it was just a shoddy implementation.
Well, it is shoddy implementation, in that how the hell is a passenger
supposed to know that zone 10 means Watford Junction? And does it mean
Grays (aka "zone G") as well?


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Old February 16th 10, 01:58 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:20:25 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Mizter T
wrote this:-

Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ional-rail.pdf


The argument is whether these can have any effect, as they conflict
with National Rail conditions which have already been referred to in
this discussion.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54
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Old February 16th 10, 02:02 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On Feb 16, 10:34*am, MIG wrote:
[snip]
Funny it should happen now, but there was actually a group of RP staff
on an LM train I was on, although my experience is of guards doing
checks.

I butted into a conversation because I mistakenly thought there was a
case of OEPs being enforced, and my curiosity got the better of me.

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

I was doing something similar on a paper season, which was accepted
instantly.

The RP said that it had always been a rule that you had to touch in on
NR and said something about Oyster being a "different product". *He
said that if you didn't touch in, there was no way of proving where
you started your journey. *I said that with my paper travelcard I had
no way of proving anything either. *He sort of agreed and shrugged.

I said, but what if you had a season on Oyster and were coming into
the zones from elsewhere? *He said that the train has to stop there
and you have to touch in.

I directed him to sections 9 and 19 of the NRCoC (19 about combination
of tickets, where one of them is a season and 9 about electronic
tickets having exactly the same validity as paper tickets).

In this case, I am so sure that he was wrong, and possibly confused by
the whole OEP issue, that I am not going to bang on about Oyster
having rules just for the sake of being able to get you for breaking
the rules. *Oyster cannot change the NRCoC.

So this must be a case of LM either making up its own rules or having
staff training issues. *No one was actually PFed in this case, but if
that's the rule that LM staff are applying, then I guess they could be.


I've only just digested the above post and properly noticed the
*crucial* bit - that's where the RPI says a passenger combining a
paper ticket from outside the zones with a Travelcard loaded on Oyster
would have to get off the train and touch-in there. He was of course
*completely wrong*, as you quite rightly point out.
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Old February 16th 10, 02:21 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On Feb 16, 2:58*pm, David Hansen
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:20:25 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Mizter T
wrote this:-

Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-...


The argument is whether these can have any effect, as they conflict
with National Rail conditions which have already been referred to in
this discussion.


I'd argue that they actually don't conflict - specifically see this
wording: "You can still use your Oyster card at stations where there
is no yellow card reader or if it is not working provided that your
Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making."

Also, if one is using a Travelcard in combination with a paper ticket,
then arguably one is not using an Oyster card at that end of the
journey anyway. (Conceptually this all gets a bit muddled as one would
be using a paper ticket combined with a Travelcard stored on Oyster!)

It's clear that TfL has no intention of stopping people from combining
Travelcards held on Oyster with paper tickets for journeys beyond the
zonal validity. Inevitably the inherent presumption is that those
using a Travelcard loaded on Oyster who wish to travel beyond the
zonal validity of said Travelcard but still within the London zones
will make use of Oyster's ability to combine Travelcard and PAYG in
order to automatically pay the extension fare.

The one significant group of people who may have other ideas is Gold
Card Travelcard holders (i.e. annual Travelcard holders), who are
entitled to a third off fares (like a Railcard) but cannot have this
discount entitlement activated on their Oyster card (unlike holders of
Railcards, except the Network Railcard and Family & Friends Railcard -
the latter at least being an understandable omission). As to why this
is the case, you would have to ask ATOC and TfL!

Also, just to make life interesting, the NRCoC does also mention that
usage of electronic tickets is subject to their own conditions of
issue and use! If the two sets of conditions (NR and electronic
ticket) were really in conflict, which would have primacy is an
interesting question. One rather suspects that those parties involved
will work to avoid that situation arising.
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Old February 16th 10, 02:57 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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It's clear that TfL has no intention of stopping people from combining
Travelcards held on Oyster with paper tickets for journeys beyond the
zonal validity. Inevitably the inherent presumption is that those
using a Travelcard loaded on Oyster who wish to travel beyond the
zonal validity of said Travelcard but still within the London zones
will make use of Oyster's ability to combine Travelcard and PAYG in
order to automatically pay the extension fare.

The one significant group of people who may have other ideas is Gold
Card Travelcard holders (i.e. annual Travelcard holders), who are
entitled to a third off fares (like a Railcard) but cannot have this
discount entitlement activated on their Oyster card (unlike holders of
Railcards, except the Network Railcard and Family & Friends Railcard -
the latter at least being an understandable omission). As to why this
is the case, you would have to ask ATOC and TfL!

Also, just to make life interesting, the NRCoC does also mention that
usage of electronic tickets is subject to their own conditions of
issue and use! If the two sets of conditions (NR and electronic
ticket) were really in conflict, which would have primacy is an
interesting question. One rather suspects that those parties involved
will work to avoid that situation arising.


London Travelwatch are to discuss some of this at the February Fares &
Ticketing meeting.

The documents include a list of gated and ungated stations.

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/...ent.php?id=687
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Old February 16th 10, 03:31 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On 16 Feb, 15:57, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
It's clear that TfL has no intention of stopping people from combining
Travelcards held on Oyster with paper tickets for journeys beyond the
zonal validity. Inevitably the inherent presumption is that those
using a Travelcard loaded on Oyster who wish to travel beyond the
zonal validity of said Travelcard but still within the London zones
will make use of Oyster's ability to combine Travelcard and PAYG in
order to automatically pay the extension fare.


The one significant group of people who may have other ideas is Gold
Card Travelcard holders (i.e. annual Travelcard holders), who are
entitled to a third off fares (like a Railcard) but cannot have this
discount entitlement activated on their Oyster card (unlike holders of
Railcards, except the Network Railcard and Family & Friends Railcard -
the latter at least being an understandable omission). As to why this
is the case, you would have to ask ATOC and TfL!


Also, just to make life interesting, the NRCoC does also mention that
usage of electronic tickets is subject to their own conditions of
issue and use! If the two sets of conditions (NR and electronic
ticket) were really in conflict, which would have primacy is an
interesting question. One rather suspects that those parties involved
will work to avoid that situation arising.


London Travelwatch are to discuss some of this at the February Fares &
Ticketing meeting.

The documents include a list of gated and ungated stations.

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/...ent.php?id=687



I can't actually see where the NRCoC says that there are different
conditions for electronic tickets. There is this bit

"Wherever reference is made in these Conditions to information about
restrictions,
stations, routes and period of validity being shown on tickets, this
information will not be
shown on Smartcards and may not be displayed on the cards or devices
in (ii) to (v) of this
Condition, for any Electronic Tickets they contain. However, any
restrictions or other terms
of use (including these Conditions where applicable) will still apply.
You can get details of
restrictions and terms of use from the seller of the Electronic Ticket
or Electronic Funds."

But I took that to mean that the conditions which apply to validity of
tickets apply to the tickets stored electronically, and other
conditions which apply to the use of stored credit on a particular
medium also apply, but not that they might contradict each other.

The seller of electronic tickets would have to provide both the
conditions which apply to tickets and the conditions which apply to
the use of electronic funds.

Or have I missed something?


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