Roland Perry wrote:
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.

A used ~2012 Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MIEV (Citreon C-Zero, Peugeot Ion)
start at about £5K.

Obviously whether they're suitable for you will depend on your use case.
(in particular the range of 60-100 miles means they're not ideal for long
journeys)

There's also the Renault Zoe in that price bracket, although the battery
leasing makes them less attractive unless you do a lot of miles.

Theo

In message , at 10:20:29 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:

not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.

I've got a £10k SUV as my first car. Not everyone buys new.

Plenty can afford it, and do, particularly on PCP.

I'm not sure there aren't some rather onerous requirements for PCP. Like
endowment mortgages back in the day, rather too much pressure which
indicates it's better for the seller than the buyer than the seller.

Or they buy nearly new.

For a long time my preference was to buy 3yr-old ex-company cars.
Usually at the big auctions. I'm now more into 6yr-old cars with 3yr
mileage on them.

Apart from my very first car, I've always had brand new cars, whether as
company vehicles or personal purchases.

I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.

Being 'forced' to change it after three years when perfectly happy with
it, grated a bit. One company I know churned them at six months!
--
Roland Perry

On 09/09/2019 23:43, Recliner wrote:

Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.

But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.

When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.

Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire cars
for short periods from an hour upwards. There are all types, from
standard petrol cars to diesel vans and electric cars such as the
Renault Zoe. There are also a few hydrogen cars, initially the LHD-only
Hyundai ix35 (which was lovely to drive) and also now some Mitsubishi
Mirai cars, which are amazing.

Fuelling and range are problems, but there is a fleet of hydrogen buses
here in the city, so the cars can use that, and there is also another
car-only fuelling station. Range is the main problem though, it's just
possible to get to Edinburgh and back on a tank-full, but I wouldn't
want to push it..! The next station south is Sheffield, so you see the
problem..!

It's quite possible to generate hydrogen locally at the filling station,
there is at least one such installation in London that I'm aware of,
although I don't recall the exact location. Solar power is ideal; there
are numerous wind turbines in this area, when not required for the grid,
they could be used to generate hydrogen. Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

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In message , at 10:17:44 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:32:04 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:

BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.

Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of
increasing ownership of electric cars is that most families will have
the city "run-around" as a second car.

not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

I went to a "Motor Show" (at ExCel) perhaps ten years ago when electric
cars were first 'a thing', and the vast majority were concept cars about
the size of an original mini.

I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.

Tesla can be credited for the smart idea that, as BEVs are inherently
expensive to build, they might as well be premium (big, fast and luxurious)
as well. So the Model S competes with the likes of the S-Class Mercedes,
BMW 7 Series and Lexus LX. And in the US at least that strategy has worked.
Conversely, cheap little BEVs have all flopped.

You'd think the Guardian Readers would have lapped them up.

Thanks to cheaper batteries, entry level BEVs are now more affordable, with
a decent range, and Kia does an excellent, very popular one. However, not
only can you not afford it, but it's also sold out a long way ahead anyway.

https://www.whatcar.com/kia/e-niro/estate/review/n18388

That's not a city car, and I choose not to spend money on assets which
waste quite as fast as a brand new car.

Meanwhile, Brexiteers are apparently queuing up to buy these:

https://lh3.ggpht.com/_Tsf-t_mqSxc/T...AAAAAAjKA/CFk-
UPFzGbw/s800/1967%20Fiat%20125%20Executive%20Bertone_01.jpg
--
Roland Perry

On 10/09/2019 12:13, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:20:29 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:

Apart from my very first car, I've always had brand new cars, whether as
company vehicles or personal purchases.

Same as my dad. I never did get where he found the money, as we weren't
a rich family when I was growing up. Still aren't..!

I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.

Being 'forced' to change it after three years when perfectly happy with
it, grated a bit. One company I know churned them at six months!
I was extremely dis-chuffed when the local car club here decided to get
rid of the Hyundai ix35 hydrogen cars they had after three years, with
only 14k miles on them. It had taken me two of those years to persuade
them to let me have access to them, as they were technically council
pool cars.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

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In message , at 12:10:23 on Tue,
10 Sep 2019, Theo remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.

A used ~2012 Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MIEV (Citreon C-Zero, Peugeot Ion)
start at about £5K.

Obviously whether they're suitable for you will depend on your use case.
(in particular the range of 60-100 miles means they're not ideal for long
journeys)

There's also the Renault Zoe in that price bracket, although the battery
leasing makes them less attractive unless you do a lot of miles.

The Peugeot looks interesting, but Insurance Group 28 - is that a
misprint!

It's the kind of car which would need recharging every night, like an
early 3G phone. I wonder if the secondhand prices include the charger.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 12:18:46 on Tue, 10
Sep 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.
But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.
When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to
heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.

Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire cars
for short periods from an hour upwards. There are all types, from
standard petrol cars to diesel vans and electric cars such as the
Renault Zoe. There are also a few hydrogen cars, initially the LHD-only
Hyundai ix35 (which was lovely to drive) and also now some Mitsubishi
Mirai cars, which are amazing.

Fuelling and range are problems, but there is a fleet of hydrogen buses
here in the city, so the cars can use that, and there is also another
car-only fuelling station. Range is the main problem though, it's just
possible to get to Edinburgh and back on a tank-full, but I wouldn't
want to push it..! The next station south is Sheffield, so you see the
problem..!

It's quite possible to generate hydrogen locally at the filling
station, there is at least one such installation in London that I'm
aware of, although I don't recall the exact location. Solar power is
ideal; there are numerous wind turbines in this area, when not required
for the grid, they could be used to generate hydrogen. Distribution
shouldn't be that much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of
petrol tankers, they would just need adapting.

It was going so well until that last sentence!
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 12:13:00 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 10:20:29 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:

not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.

I've got a £10k SUV as my first car. Not everyone buys new.

Plenty can afford it, and do, particularly on PCP.

I'm not sure there aren't some rather onerous requirements for PCP. Like
endowment mortgages back in the day, rather too much pressure which
indicates it's better for the seller than the buyer than the seller.

Oh, I'm quite sure they're better for the sellers than the buyers.
There are many stories of people who've agreed a deal to buy a car,
with a discount or extras thrown in, but when the salesman discovered
that they didn't want credit, the deal was withdrawn, and a much worse
price offered.


Or they buy nearly new.

For a long time my preference was to buy 3yr-old ex-company cars.
Usually at the big auctions. I'm now more into 6yr-old cars with 3yr
mileage on them.

Apart from my very first car, I've always had brand new cars, whether as
company vehicles or personal purchases.

I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.

I always chose my company cars, including the model, colour, options,
etc.

I even had an Alfa Romeo once, hardly a typical company car (with good
reason). On more than one occasion both rear doors refused to open,
and my rear seat passengers had to climb over the (non-folding) front
seats. And I could often harvest a small crop of little screws on the
carpet under the dashboard.


Being 'forced' to change it after three years when perfectly happy with
it, grated a bit. One company I know churned them at six months!

Agreed.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 12:18:46 +0100, MissRiaElaine
wrote:

On 09/09/2019 23:43, Recliner wrote:

Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.

But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.

When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.

Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire cars
for short periods from an hour upwards. There are all types, from
standard petrol cars to diesel vans and electric cars such as the
Renault Zoe. There are also a few hydrogen cars, initially the LHD-only
Hyundai ix35 (which was lovely to drive) and also now some Mitsubishi
Mirai cars, which are amazing.

Fuelling and range are problems, but there is a fleet of hydrogen buses
here in the city, so the cars can use that, and there is also another
car-only fuelling station. Range is the main problem though, it's just
possible to get to Edinburgh and back on a tank-full, but I wouldn't
want to push it..! The next station south is Sheffield, so you see the
problem..!

It's quite possible to generate hydrogen locally at the filling station,
there is at least one such installation in London that I'm aware of,
although I don't recall the exact location. Solar power is ideal; there
are numerous wind turbines in this area, when not required for the grid,
they could be used to generate hydrogen.

There are small surpluses of wind power from time to time, and
generating hydrogen is indeed a very good way to use that power. But
there's not enough for a mass switch to hydrogen power. I think some
Scottish islands export hydrogen produced from their surplus wind
power.

Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.

The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:54:53 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:

On Mon, Sep 09, 2019 at 10:40:06PM +0100, MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote:
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street
parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging
points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not
stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all
coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in.

The existing electrical distribution system (it's more than just the
cables) wouldn't stand up to a street full of chargers on private land
either.

True


I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to
fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it
would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than
charging points everywhere.

Hydrogen is an absolute bugger to store and transport and has some
rather serious safety issues. It also has a lot lower lower energy
density than petrol or diesel.

Yes, most alternate fuels do, including batteries.

The ideal solution would be some new synthetic liquid fuel, with a
similar energy density to petrol, that could be produced and burnt
cleanly. I'm sure a lot of labs are researching such fuels, but they
won't be along for quite a while.