On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:25:59 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:


"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message .com,
TheOneKEA writes

Is this platform planned to be brought into use by TfL as part of any
new Overground services to Clapham Junction?

I think it will when the East London Line Extension reaches Clapham
Junction. The likely scenario seems to be that London Overground services
running anticlockwise (i.e. on the ELLE) will use platform 2, while those
running clockwise (i.e. on the West London Line) will move across to
platform 1, thus offering cross-platform interchange.

Are you saying that trains will not actually run in a circle but would
effectively reverse in the appropriate platform? Passengers would be
forced to change in order to complete a cross Clapham Junction journey?

That fits in with everything I've read. Its considered impossible to run a
reliable orbital service due to pathing and signalling constraints - a bit
like the circle line really...

I think the S Bahn operators in Berlin might disagree with you. They
seem to run a circular Ring Bahn perfectly well and also schedule
overlap services over parts of the entire circuit to bolster frequencies
and provide links onto radial S Bahn lines. I've used it and it seems
pretty reliable to me and also well patronised.

Circular services are only a problem when you try to run them with
inadequate infrastructure or schedules that are too tight - are that
would be why can't run them in this country then!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:25:59 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Are you saying that trains will not actually run in a circle but would
effectively reverse in the appropriate platform? Passengers would be
forced to change in order to complete a cross Clapham Junction journey?

That fits in with everything I've read. Its considered impossible to run a
reliable orbital service due to pathing and signalling constraints - a bit
like the circle line really...

I think the S Bahn operators in Berlin might disagree with you. They
seem to run a circular Ring Bahn perfectly well and also schedule
overlap services over parts of the entire circuit to bolster frequencies
and provide links onto radial S Bahn lines. I've used it and it seems
pretty reliable to me and also well patronised.

Circular services are only a problem when you try to run them with
inadequate infrastructure or schedules that are too tight - are that
would be why can't run them in this country then!

I believe thats the background to the T-cup proposals for the circle line
and H&C isn't it?

Paul S

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

Are you saying that trains will not actually run in a circle but would
effectively reverse in the appropriate platform? Passengers would be
forced to change in order to complete a cross Clapham Junction journey?

Yes, that's my understanding. On the map accessible from ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml

Clapham Junction is shown as an interchange between the clockwise and
anticlockwise routes, rather than as a through station.

I guess it would be possible for trains to reverse at Clapham Junction
and continue round the circle, but I imagine that it could produce all
sorts of operating problems.
--
Paul Terry

On Jun 30, 5:54 pm, Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Paul Corfield
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
Are you saying that trains will not actually run in a circle but would
effectively reverse in the appropriate platform? Passengers would be
forced to change in order to complete a cross Clapham Junction journey?

Yes, that's my understanding. On the map accessible from ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/.../overground_tr...

Clapham Junction is shown as an interchange between the clockwise and
anticlockwise routes, rather than as a through station.

I guess it would be possible for trains to reverse at Clapham Junction
and continue round the circle, but I imagine that it could produce all
sorts of operating problems.
--
Paul Terry


It would mean that trains arriving and departing would sometimes have
to cross, but that happens at many two-platform termini with genuine
metro frequencies (eg Elephant and Castle, Brixton). A dedicated
platform for each direction would be a nice luxury, but would it be
necessary with the frequencies planned?

On Jun 30, 6:21?pm, MIG wrote:
On Jun 30, 5:54 pm, Paul Terry wrote:





In message , Paul Corfield
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
Are you saying that trains will not actually run in a circle but would
effectively reverse in the appropriate platform? Passengers would be
forced to change in order to complete a cross Clapham Junction journey?

Yes, that's my understanding. On the map accessible from ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/.../overground_tr...

Clapham Junction is shown as an interchange between the clockwise and
anticlockwise routes, rather than as a through station.

I guess it would be possible for trains to reverse at Clapham Junction
and continue round the circle, but I imagine that it could produce all
sorts of operating problems.
--
Paul Terry

It would mean that trains arriving and departing would sometimes have
to cross, but that happens at many two-platform termini with genuine
metro frequencies (eg Elephant and Castle, Brixton). A dedicated
platform for each direction would be a nice luxury, but would it be
necessary with the frequencies planned?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Follow this link for a pictue of Platform 1 in use in 1971:-

http://johnlawontherails.fotopic.net/p37188651.html

Marc.

Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Paul Corfield
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

Are you saying that trains will not actually run in a circle but
would effectively reverse in the appropriate platform? Passengers
would be forced to change in order to complete a cross Clapham
Junction journey?

Yes, that's my understanding. On the map accessible from ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml

Clapham Junction is shown as an interchange between the clockwise and
anticlockwise routes, rather than as a through station.

I guess it would be possible for trains to reverse at Clapham Junction
and continue round the circle, but I imagine that it could produce all
sorts of operating problems.

I can't think of any, unless you mean "reverse *promptly* at Clapham
Junction and continue round the circle". It should produce a more robust
service if the trains *do* continue around the circle, after a suitable
wait... that way problems which affect the clockwise can't affect the anti
and vice versa.

On 30 Jun, 14:49, Paul Corfield wrote:
Are you saying that trains will not actually run in a circle but would
effectively reverse in the appropriate platform? Passengers would be
forced to change in order to complete a cross Clapham Junction journey?

I think TfL are quite keen to keep the "North London Railway" and
"East London Railway" segments of London Overground separate. The two
will be different operationally and have separate fleets of trains,
for one thing. This pretty much precludes any kind of round-the-corner
service at Clapham Junction.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/

Here are some photographs of the Clapham Junction sidings next to
platforms 1&2 in the 1950's

http://www.southernrailway.net/searc...arch_fd0=35280
http://www.southernrailway.net/searc...arch_fd0=35338
http://www.southernrailway.net/searc...arch_fd0=35339
http://www.southernrailway.net/searc...arch_fd0=35918

nn

In message , John Rowland
writes

Paul Terry wrote:

I guess it would be possible for trains to reverse at Clapham Junction
and continue round the circle, but I imagine that it could produce all
sorts of operating problems.

I can't think of any, unless you mean "reverse *promptly* at Clapham
Junction and continue round the circle".

Clockwise and anticlockwise services would have to cross on the level
just outside the station if they were not to terminate at Clapham
Junction.

Pathing on the WLL will be difficult because it is shared with a number
of other services, so there is likely to be little or no flexibility to
schedule services to make optimum use of such a crossover - and delays
on the WLL leg would then have a bad knock-on effect on the ELLE leg.

Pathing on the ELLE should be easier, but it is likely that the line
will have to be shared with some sort of SLL service to Victoria, so
there is all sorts of potential for circle-line-like delays - breaking
the service at Clapham Junction should help mitigate that.

It should produce a more robust service if the trains *do* continue
around the circle, after a suitable wait... that way problems which
affect the clockwise can't affect the anti and vice versa.

I don't think that the Orbirail project will ever run a fully circular
service, because of the potential for serious delays (like the circle
line but infinitely worse). Nothing's decided, AFAIK, but clockwise
services from Clapham Junction may terminate at Stratford for the
Olympics, and at Barking thereafter, although it has also been suggested
that they may (as at present) go no further than Willesden Junction.
Anticlockwise may only go as far as Surrey Quays.
--
Paul Terry

Paul Terry wrote:

It should produce a more robust service if the trains *do* continue around
the circle, after a suitable wait... that way problems which affect the
clockwise can't affect the anti and vice versa.

I don't think that the Orbirail project will ever run a fully circular
service, because of the potential for serious delays (like the circle line
but infinitely worse).

Maybe not a complete circular service, but some through services running
across Clapham Junction would have clear attractions, especially as it would
reduce the interchange pressure and give passengers a better indication of
how long it will take to get to their destination. Back to back terminuses
aren't as attractive for passengers - look at buses where there are mancy
cases of two services on what is basically a single long route overlapping
rather than having all the changeover in one place.

That said I'm not sure where the natural terminuses for a reasonable service
running across Clapham are.