On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, Paul Scott wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
.li...

I take your point. ISTR a map (drawn by J. Rowland?) which put the
Wimbleware service in a different shade of green to the rest of the
District to make it clear that there were no Richmond - Edgware Road
trains. You could do something similar with the Metropolitan. Moreover,
the current map suggests you can get a train from Clapham Junction to
Stratford via Willesden Junction; you cannot.

Bit of a sweeping statement that Tom, there are 3 or 4 services each way
to/from CJ shown in the weekday timetables!

Well, bugger. Okay, but four trains does not a service make.

Thanks to Peter and Paul for the correction, though.

tom

--
Intensive Erfrischung

On Dec 12, 12:42 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote:
On 11 Dec, 17:15, Tom Anderson wrote:

This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html

Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once
peak-hours only?

It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years
ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for
exactly that reason.


Nope, the H&C runs through to Barking 7 days a week, throughout the
day now and has for quite a few years. Of course, that doesn't mean
that it does so reliably.

And did Met trains from the main line really only run through to Aldgate
in the peaks?

Er, they still do.


They run both during the peak and the off peak, 7 days a week. Most of
the Uxbridge line services run to / from Aldgate and some of the
Amersham services also run through to/from Aldgate. In the past, there
was only a peak-hour service, but like the H&C line the off-peak
Aldgate services have run through for some years.

Maybe you knew these things. Apologies, my sarcasm detector is broken this
morning.

tom

--
Intensive Erfrischung

On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote:
On 11 Dec, 17:15, Tom Anderson wrote:

This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html

Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once
peak-hours only?

It still is, isn't it?

No.

I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years
ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for
exactly that reason.

I don't know about the evenings, but there have been daytime off-peak
H&C services beyond Whitechapel for a few years now.


And did Met trains from the main line really only run through to Aldgate
in the peaks?

Er, they still do.

No. Some of them also run through to Aldgate off peak.


Maybe you knew these things. Apologies, my sarcasm detector is broken this
morning.

So is your knowledge of Underground.

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John Rowland wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

ISTR a map (drawn by J. Rowland?) which put the Wimbleware service
in a different shade of green to the rest of the District to make
it clear that there were no Richmond - Edgware Road trains.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...wimbleware.gif

I KNEW IT!

Those little map snippets, thrown together in a couple of hours just to add
some colour to my title page (
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069 ), generated far more
interest than the site content ever did.

On Dec 11, 3:37 am, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Dec, 00:01, "John Rowland"

wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

That said, it will become a far more critical bit of London's
transport infrastructure when it becomes part of the ELLX, so I guess
it's worth getting everything right first time round during this
closure and making sure all the works are done to a very high
standard.

But this isn't first time around! The ELL was closed for three years not
long ago, when conversion to third rail and use of NR rolling stock etc was
already inevitable.

Yes, I was aware of that though I didn't mention it. One would think
that any major remedial works were done then - the Thames Tunnel was
certainly 'dealt with', though the shotcrete treatment wasn't to the
liking of conservationists, which is of course why the line was closed
for so much longer than originally anticipated (and of course you know
this all already, but I'm just setting the scene for the audience!).

I'd be most interested in seeing a break-down of the works.

One other point to consider is what stock would be operating the line
if it reopened in 9 months (for example) time? Don't forget that the
conversion to National Rail standards with 3rd rail electrification
would rule out the use of A-stock and there would be no connection
back onto the LUL system for major servicing anyway. The new Class 378
units for the line will only start arriving towards the end of 2008
for service in 2009 and I understand that it is the dual voltage units
for the North London Line that will be first in service, with the DC
only units following. For these to run on the ELL, the depot will need
to be ready as well, as there will initially be no connection at
Dalston between the North and East London Lines.

On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:
This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html

Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once
peak-hours only?

It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years
ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for
exactly that reason.

No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is
the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon-
Sat.

And did Met trains from the main line really only run through to Aldgate
in the peaks?

Er, they still do.

No. Met trains run to and from Aldgate all day. Last train ex-Aldgate
is the 0011 to Harrow.

Maybe you knew these things. Apologies, my sarcasm detector is broken this
morning.

I couldn't possibly comment on your tube-service-pattern detector ;-)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 12 Dec, 13:17, Andy wrote:
On Dec 11, 3:37 am, Mizter T wrote:





On 11 Dec, 00:01, "John Rowland"

wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

That said, it will become a far more critical bit of London's
transport infrastructure when it becomes part of the ELLX, so I guess
it's worth getting everything right first time round during this
closure and making sure all the works are done to a very high
standard.

But this isn't first time around! The ELL was closed for three years not
long ago, when conversion to third rail and use of NR rolling stock etc was
already inevitable.

Yes, I was aware of that though I didn't mention it. One would think
that any major remedial works were done then - the Thames Tunnel was
certainly 'dealt with', though the shotcrete treatment wasn't to the
liking of conservationists, which is of course why the line was closed
for so much longer than originally anticipated (and of course you know
this all already, but I'm just setting the scene for the audience!).

I'd be most interested in seeing a break-down of the works.

One other point to consider is what stock would be operating the line
if it reopened in 9 months (for example) time? Don't forget that the
conversion to National Rail standards with 3rd rail electrification
would rule out the use of A-stock and there would be no connection
back onto the LUL system for major servicing anyway. The new Class 378
units for the line will only start arriving towards the end of 2008
for service in 2009 and I understand that it is the dual voltage units
for the North London Line that will be first in service, with the DC
only units following. For these to run on the ELL, the depot will need
to be ready as well, as there will initially be no connection at
Dalston between the North and East London Lines.- Hide quoted text -

They could have started the closure later, though! (w.r.t stock I mean
- I don't know enough to comment on the engineering/conversion issues)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 12 Dec, 10:59, wrote:
On 12 Dec, 10:32, John B wrote:

On 11 Dec, 17:15, Tom Anderson wrote:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html

Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once
peak-hours only? And did Met trains from the main line really only run
through to Aldgate in the peaks?

You're making me feel very, very old. But yes, back then the "big
Met" terminated at Baker Street, and the "little Met" at Whitechapel,
off-peak.

The current service pattern only came in after the "little Met" became
a line in its own right. (There were some other weird experiments
with the sub-surface lines around the same time, such as sending the
Olympia trains all the way to Edgware Road. But this was the only one
that really stuck.)


I note that there have been some depot changes in relatively recent
years, like the Barking sidings now being mainly for C stock and C
stock no longer stabling at Neasden (the missing bit of the jigsaw
being how is the displaced D stock accommodated).

Do these coincide with the all-day Barking service? Or is it more to
do with changes at Neasden with the Jubilee extension? Or was that
the same time anyway?

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:21:49 +0000, Tom Anderson
mangled uncounted electrons thus:

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Dec, 19:11, Tom Anderson wrote:

Someone remind me - why is the ELL closing for three years?

Tis two years - the plan is to have the ELLX open in December 2009
(i.e. when the railway timetables change).

Aha. This leaflet, in which, allegedly, "information is correct at time of
going to print - November 2007":

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...re-leaflet.pdf

says "The East London line will close on 22 December 2007 for major
extension work and will reopen by summer 2010 as part of the London
Overground network.". Summer 2010 is public works code for winter 2010,
from which i calculated three years. But if it only takes two, that's much
better.

I have thought this too - sure, there are big works to be done (flyover
at New Cross Gate, station and bridge at Shoreditch High St, ramp -
already half-built - up from Whitechapel, etc etc), but on the face of
it they don't need the existing ELL to close...

Right. The work connected with the ramp from Whitechapel, perhaps, but
Shoreditch High Street is nowhere near the current line, and the NXG
flyover surely just involves closing the NXG branch!

However I think the plan might involves materials being transported by
rail from the Silwood Triangle works site, and perhaps from restored
link(s) with the main lines at either New Cross or New Cross Gate or
both - of course the latter will have a permanent connection when
through ELLX services start running, though perhaps the former is an
easier place for works trains to access from the rest of the network.

This sounds plausible, but an appallingly bad excuse.

I've also heard that there's to be large-scale changes to power and
signals to change them to NR standards. Still hard to see how this'll take
2-3 years.

On a related note, Liverpool Street is closed for a week over christmas
"as a result of major engineering work on the approach lines to the
station, in connection with the extension of TfLs East London line". I
don't know if that's the ramp or a new track connection or preparatory
works or what.

grin As LST will be closed for the bridge removal, NR are
taking the opportunity of doing a lot of work on the overhead
lines in the station and on the immediate approaches. And track
and overhead work between Ingatestone and Shenfield.

Those of us who commute on the main line are looking worriedly at
the three separate sets of works and wondering just how long
they'll over-run...

Martin D. Pay
Who doubts that mainline services will be running normally by 2
January, when we all go back to work...

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:

On Dec 12, 12:42 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote:
On 11 Dec, 17:15, Tom Anderson wrote:

This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html

Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once
peak-hours only?

It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years
ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for
exactly that reason.

Nope, the H&C runs through to Barking 7 days a week, throughout the day
now and has for quite a few years.

Glad to hear it.

Paging Clive - if that's true, i think your line guide needs updating.

Of course, that doesn't mean that it does so reliably.

Wouldn't be the H&C if it was!

And did Met trains from the main line really only run through to Aldgate
in the peaks?

Er, they still do.

They run both during the peak and the off peak, 7 days a week. Most of
the Uxbridge line services run to / from Aldgate and some of the
Amersham services also run through to/from Aldgate. In the past, there
was only a peak-hour service, but like the H&C line the off-peak Aldgate
services have run through for some years.

Aha, i misread that - i thought it was "only to Aldgate", rather than
"only in the peaks".

tom

--
Is this the only way to get through to you?