On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:

On Dec 11, 3:37 am, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Dec, 00:01, "John Rowland"

wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

That said, it will become a far more critical bit of London's
transport infrastructure when it becomes part of the ELLX, so I guess
it's worth getting everything right first time round during this
closure and making sure all the works are done to a very high
standard.

But this isn't first time around! The ELL was closed for three years not
long ago, when conversion to third rail and use of NR rolling stock etc was
already inevitable.

Yes, I was aware of that though I didn't mention it. One would think
that any major remedial works were done then - the Thames Tunnel was
certainly 'dealt with', though the shotcrete treatment wasn't to the
liking of conservationists, which is of course why the line was closed
for so much longer than originally anticipated (and of course you know
this all already, but I'm just setting the scene for the audience!).

I'd be most interested in seeing a break-down of the works.

One other point to consider is what stock would be operating the line if
it reopened in 9 months (for example) time? Don't forget that the
conversion to National Rail standards with 3rd rail electrification
would rule out the use of A-stock

Oh, like how LU stock can't run to Richmond or Watford? I can't see why
there would be any problem putting in an earth-bonded fourth rail to
sustain the service until it becomes fully Overgrounded.

and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major
servicing anyway.

I hadn't realised that was happening. Is there a huge problem with doing
occasional stock transfers over NR lines? Apart from the fact that the
route would via Clapham Junction, some maneuvers out West, and the Dudden
Hill branch ...

tom

--
Is this the only way to get through to you?

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote:

On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:

This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html

Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once
peak-hours only?

It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years
ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for
exactly that reason.

No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is
the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon-
Sat.

Ah, so it's still not all day every day to Barking. More than just in the
peaks, granted, but it's still an annoying pattern. Some people still want
to travel into town after nine!

tom

--
Is this the only way to get through to you?

On 12 Dec, 18:23, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote:
On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:

This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html

Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once
peak-hours only?

It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years
ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for
exactly that reason.

No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is
the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon-
Sat.

Ah, so it's still not all day every day to Barking. More than just in the
peaks, granted, but it's still an annoying pattern. Some people still want
to travel into town after nine!

tom

District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or
Met lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate
East an outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I
bet it already is.

Dare I suggest that for a Stepney to Finsbury Park journey the new
ELLX might be handy - walk to Whitechapel (or get the District or bus
if you insist!) then one of the 8 (?) tph that will continue through
past Dalston Junction to Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury, get off at High &
I then the Vic line up to FP.

On 12 Dec, 18:41, Mizter T wrote:
District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or
Met lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate
East an outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I
bet it already is.

Most of the H&C reverses at Whitchapel, so you should be OK just
waiting at Aldgate East for one of those. Also, the "next train to
Baker St" indicator at Aldgate doesn't seem to work until the last
minute, so catching a northbound train is a nightmare.

Dare I suggest that for a Stepney to Finsbury Park journey the new
ELLX might be handy - walk to Whitechapel (or get the District or bus
if you insist!) then one of the 8 (?) tph that will continue through
past Dalston Junction to Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury, get off at High &
I then the Vic line up to FP.

Last we heard it was 4, but the proposed track design has changed so
it has dedicated track all the way to H&I, so it's possible they all
could.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

"Mizter T" wrote

District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or
Met lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate
East an outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I
bet it already is.

It's never been advertised as an interchange, and isn't needed as one.
Passengers for the H&C from east of Barking (or east of Whitechapel Sundays
and late evenings when the H&C doesn't run east of Whitechapel) have a same
platform interchange at Aldgate East.

Peter

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
On 12 Dec, 18:23, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote:
On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:

This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html

Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really
once
peak-hours only?

It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few
years
ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for
exactly that reason.

No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is
the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon-
Sat.

Ah, so it's still not all day every day to Barking. More than just in the
peaks, granted, but it's still an annoying pattern. Some people still
want
to travel into town after nine!

District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or
Met lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate
East an outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I
bet it already is.

I think you're mixed up between Aldgate and Aldgate East? Isn't it Circle
and Met at Aldgate, and District (+ H&C) at Aldgate East?
--
David Biddulph

On Dec 12, 6:21 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:
On Dec 11, 3:37 am, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Dec, 00:01, "John Rowland"

wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

That said, it will become a far more critical bit of London's
transport infrastructure when it becomes part of the ELLX, so I guess
it's worth getting everything right first time round during this
closure and making sure all the works are done to a very high
standard.

But this isn't first time around! The ELL was closed for three years not
long ago, when conversion to third rail and use of NR rolling stock etc was
already inevitable.

Yes, I was aware of that though I didn't mention it. One would think
that any major remedial works were done then - the Thames Tunnel was
certainly 'dealt with', though the shotcrete treatment wasn't to the
liking of conservationists, which is of course why the line was closed
for so much longer than originally anticipated (and of course you know
this all already, but I'm just setting the scene for the audience!).

I'd be most interested in seeing a break-down of the works.

One other point to consider is what stock would be operating the line if
it reopened in 9 months (for example) time? Don't forget that the
conversion to National Rail standards with 3rd rail electrification
would rule out the use of A-stock

Oh, like how LU stock can't run to Richmond or Watford? I can't see why
there would be any problem putting in an earth-bonded fourth rail to
sustain the service until it becomes fully Overgrounded.


Probably quite doable, but how do the trains get onto the line?

and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major
servicing anyway.

I hadn't realised that was happening. Is there a huge problem with doing
occasional stock transfers over NR lines? Apart from the fact that the
route would via Clapham Junction, some maneuvers out West, and the Dudden
Hill branch ...


And where would the connection onto National Rail be? At the northern
end, the ELL will only run to Dalston, until the NLL is reconfigured
for the 2011 extension of services to Highbury & Islington. At the
southern end, there will be no connections until the flying junction
at New Cross Gate is installed (the work for this is planned to start
in May 2008, but that's just the bridge installation). The St. Mary's
curve to the District / Hammersmith & City lines is due to be taken
out early next year and so the line will be 'on its own' with no
connections to NR or LUL for a long time. Remember that there is a
long lead-time on NR signalling works and I would imagine that the
dates for the connection at New Cross Gate will rely on when
signalling resources are available.

I'm sure plans could have been made, but also remember that the new
sub-surface (S-) stock will be being delivered about the same time
(2009) and so the Met might want a couple of A-stock trains in reserve
in case of problems dealing with two different designs at the same
time.

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 18:21:33 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:

On Dec 11, 3:37 am, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Dec, 00:01, "John Rowland"

wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

That said, it will become a far more critical bit of London's
transport infrastructure when it becomes part of the ELLX, so I guess
it's worth getting everything right first time round during this
closure and making sure all the works are done to a very high
standard.

But this isn't first time around! The ELL was closed for three years not
long ago, when conversion to third rail and use of NR rolling stock etc was
already inevitable.

Yes, I was aware of that though I didn't mention it. One would think
that any major remedial works were done then - the Thames Tunnel was
certainly 'dealt with', though the shotcrete treatment wasn't to the
liking of conservationists, which is of course why the line was closed
for so much longer than originally anticipated (and of course you know
this all already, but I'm just setting the scene for the audience!).

I'd be most interested in seeing a break-down of the works.

One other point to consider is what stock would be operating the line if
it reopened in 9 months (for example) time? Don't forget that the
conversion to National Rail standards with 3rd rail electrification
would rule out the use of A-stock

Oh, like how LU stock can't run to Richmond or Watford? I can't see why
there would be any problem putting in an earth-bonded fourth rail to
sustain the service until it becomes fully Overgrounded.

It isn't done with an earth-bonded fourth rail, the fourth rail is
bonded to the traction current return rail which under particular
conditions (e.g. dry weather and train pulling many amps at the far
end from the substation) can be a number of volts away from earth
requiring the signalling circuits to be designed to match (the
substation end was IIRC described in a previous thread by someone with
the relevant experience). Returning to A stock, if it is working in
isolation then it might be easier to do a Sarah Siddons-style
temporary conversion to 3rd-rail.

and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major
servicing anyway.

Rubber-wheeled stock transfer ?

I hadn't realised that was happening. Is there a huge problem with doing
occasional stock transfers over NR lines? Apart from the fact that the
route would via Clapham Junction, some maneuvers out West, and the Dudden
Hill branch ...

And it's still going to have NR-style frequencies, unlike the tube.

Surely that's only in the short-term though? I understood that the aim was
to create mass transit systems out of them, ala the current Underground
frequency. I may be wrong.

Best Wishes,
LEWIS

"Lew 1" wrote in message
...
And it's still going to have NR-style frequencies, unlike the tube.

Surely that's only in the short-term though? I understood that the aim was
to create mass transit systems out of them, ala the current Underground
frequency. I may be wrong.


Achieving mass transit frequencies on a heavy rail route (say 24tph) is the
sort of thing provided by Crossrail or Thameslink, at a cost of £billions.
The Overground is a much more modest affair


You will only ever see NLL & WLL frequency increasing incrementally, up to
4, 6 or maybe 8 tph over overlapping sections of the line, because it is
also a goods line. When Ken talks about 'metro style frequencies' he seems
to mean better than 4 tph, which is when it is considered (by many) that you
don't need to worry about the timetable. The ELLX plans are initially based
on 12 tph through the tunnel, and that is limited to 8tph south of New Cross
Gate, because it is then integrated with the main lines towards
Croydon/Crystal Palace.

Paul S