"Robin May" wrote in message
. 1.4...
(Mait001) wrote the following in:


Allow me, if I may, to reply.

Robin, you seem to have some difficulty in accepting a consistency
between 2 totally consistent and coherent statements:

You have misunderstood the post to which I was replying.

1. Anti-war feeling is lower than it has been hyped-up to be.

Robert Griffith didn't say this. What he said was that he didn't
believe anti-war feeling was very strong. He said the reason he didn't
believe this was because the demonstration was only a million strong
and the population of the UK who could demonstrate was much bigger than
that.

2. There are other ways of making one's anti-war feelings known
other an public street demonstrations.

But he himself only recognised anti-war feeling when it was expressed
at a public street demonstration.


Hang on sunshine! Please stop twisting my words to suit your beliefs. Marc
summed up the points I was making admirably. Clearly I failed to get them
across to you, but then maybe that says more about your ability to
understand an opposite view than my inability to articulate my thoughts!

One final go, I believe:
a. the active anti-war/antiBush support is exaggerated
b. there are other ways to express ones disagreement rather than
participating in yobbish demonstrations! yep yobbish!

Robert Griffith

In
Stimpy wrote:

kedron wrote:
But that's just a guess. It's precisely the kind of guess I suggested
you were making. Between poll tax, country alliance, cnd, anti-war,
pensioners, petrol geeks etc etc, I'd say your guess is wrong.

I'd say you're misjudging your fellow citizens.

What do the rest of you think?

I've been around for 43 years now...

Deepest sympathies.

and know no-one who has ever been on any
kind of mass demonstration. Most people I know really don't care *that*
much about the sort of things that demonstrations tend to cover -

So WHO are all these people who demonstrate?

How can you account for all those examples I provided above?

I left a few examples out -- like trade union demonstrators, animal
rights activists, environmentalists etc

People are demonstrating all the time about all manner of things,
many of which you never hear about...like this one which appeared
in the news only yesterday:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...ds/3272961.stm

I bet you if you asked around your friends, you might be surprised.

they, like
me, are just getting on with their own lives and doing the best they can to
create a secure future for their families.

You think demonstrators don't do that as well?

Sure there are things I might feel are wrong or with which I might disagree
(in my case this would, for example, include the recent war, the Bush visit
and the fox hunting ban) but I certainly wouldn't go on a demonstration
about them - I have better things to do with my time

And I'm not denying that there are many people like you who don't
care enough about anything to want to do something about it.
Nor am I saying I agree with every demonstrator. But I do agree with
their right to demonstrate, and I believe far more people are exercising
that right than you suppose. I also believe that they can make a difference.
Like the one that's going to happen this week.

The difference between caring enough and not caring enough is a world of
a difference.

And people who don't care enough shouldn't complain should their smug
existences ever get tossed upside down -- because it will have happened
in THEIR names.

--
kedron

Quite, Robert. You'd better get used to that sort of response for having
the
temerity to disagree with Robin!

Marc.


My pleasure Marc, I had to intervene because I find the arrogant assertions,
that almost everyone in this country support this cause, to be so far from
the truth!

Robert


Robert, indeed.

I was tempted to intervene on your behalf in the discussion you are having
about comparatively few people attending demonstrations and that, in any event,
there are other ways to express one's feelings apart from demonstrating. Your
point makes perfect sense to me - and I wish you luck in trying to explain it
again to those who fail to grasp the simple issue that:-

(a) not anything like the "majority" of the population opposed the war,
(b) that those who did demonstrate cannot be said to represent anyone but
themselves and
(c) that some who did not demonstrate had other means to express their views,
and
(d) a combination of those groups does not represent "the majority" of the
population anyway.

Marc.

In
Steve wrote:

"Stimpy" wrote in
:

Sure there are things I might feel are wrong or with which I might
disagree (in my case this would, for example, include the recent war,
the Bush visit and the fox hunting ban) but I certainly wouldn't go on
a demonstration about them - I have better things to do with my time

Alas your anti-war/bush feeling would not be counted according to some here
because you did not demonstrate.

Well you can't count something that never gets meaningfully expressed.

Importantly, it seems that Stimpy (and others) either doesn't want to be
counted, or doesn't really care if he isn't counted. Result: he doesn't count.

--
kedron

It wasn't because he'd disagreed with me. It was because what he said
genuinely didn't make sense. It contradicted itself and made no
internal sense.

It makes perfect sense to me, as I have explained in a separate message. I hope
you understand the explanation I have given.

Marc.

kedron wrote:
In
Steve wrote:

"Stimpy" wrote in
:

Sure there are things I might feel are wrong or with which I might
disagree (in my case this would, for example, include the recent
war,
the Bush visit and the fox hunting ban) but I certainly wouldn't go
on
a demonstration about them - I have better things to do with my time

Alas your anti-war/bush feeling would not be counted according to
some here because you did not demonstrate.

Well you can't count something that never gets meaningfully expressed.

Importantly, it seems that Stimpy (and others) either doesn't want to
be counted, or doesn't really care if he isn't counted. Result: he
doesn't count.

That's about right... some of us have more important things to do than worry
about 'being counted'.

kedron wrote:
In
Stimpy wrote:

kedron wrote:
But that's just a guess. It's precisely the kind of guess I
suggested you were making. Between poll tax, country alliance, cnd,
anti-war, pensioners, petrol geeks etc etc, I'd say your guess is
wrong.

I'd say you're misjudging your fellow citizens.

What do the rest of you think?

I've been around for 43 years now...

Deepest sympathies.

Much appreciated ;-)


and know no-one who has ever been on any
kind of mass demonstration. Most people I know really don't care
*that* much about the sort of things that demonstrations tend to
cover -

So WHO are all these people who demonstrate?

How can you account for all those examples I provided above?

I don't know and don't really care. You asked what 'the rest' of us think
and I replied. I can't really see the point in getting into an argument
about someone else views. I was only trying to be polite by answering your
question.


I bet you if you asked around your friends, you might be surprised.

Oddly enough, I was with 5 other friends last night and we discussed this
very subject, apropos the Bush visit and the ongoing hunting ban debate.
None of them had ever been on a demontrstation or would even consider it.
Other friends I have known since school and/or university would also fall
into that category.


they, like
me, are just getting on with their own lives and doing the best they
can to create a secure future for their families.

You think demonstrators don't do that as well?

Where did I say I thought that?


Sure there are things I might feel are wrong or with which I might
disagree (in my case this would, for example, include the recent
war, the Bush visit and the fox hunting ban) but I certainly
wouldn't go on a demonstration about them - I have better things to
do with my time

And I'm not denying that there are many people like you who don't
care enough about anything to want to do something about it.
Nor am I saying I agree with every demonstrator. But I do agree with
their right to demonstrate, and I believe far more people are
exercising that right than you suppose. I also believe that they can
make a difference. Like the one that's going to happen this week.

I agree. I don't recall stating I disagreed with the right to demonstrate.
I was merely posting that *I* didn't know anyone who would ever attend such
an event. Methinks you doth protest too much!


And people who don't care enough shouldn't complain should their smug
existences ever get tossed upside down -- because it will have
happened
in THEIR names.

Ah-ha... so just because I don't have the time or inclination to
demonstrate, that makes me smug does it?

In
Mait001 wrote:

(a) not anything like the "majority" of the population opposed the war,

The population was lied to. Perhaps not anything like a majority
were not stupid enough to be fooled. But the truth is coming out, as
it always does, and look what's been happening to the popularity
ratings.

(b) that those who did demonstrate cannot be said to represent anyone but
themselves

So? The point was they represented themselves in massive number.

and
(c) that some who did not demonstrate had other means to express their views,

But did they? Did you? How did you express your views?

and
(d) a combination of those groups does not represent "the majority" of the
population anyway.

Have you carried out a poll or something? You seem to be speaking with great
authority.

The demonstrators were the ones who knew they were being lied to.

If we had not been lied to, do you think the outcome would have been same?

--
kedron

Hang on sunshine! Please stop twisting my words to suit your beliefs. Marc
summed up the points I was making admirably. Clearly I failed to get them
across to you, but then maybe that says more about your ability to
understand an opposite view than my inability to articulate my thoughts!

One final go, I believe:
a. the active anti-war/antiBush support is exaggerated
b. there are other ways to express ones disagreement rather than
participating in yobbish demonstrations! yep yobbish!

Robert Griffith

Whilst I didn't use the word "yobbish", it is an excellent choice. My
girlfriend, who opposed the war, and had planned to go on the February
demonstration, immediately decided against it when she realised the sorts of
fellow-travellers whom she would indirectly be supporting by doing so. And she
also felt very strongly that the Police had better things to do with their time
than indulging the demonstrators.

Marc.

I've been around for 43 years now and know no-one who has ever been on any
kind of mass demonstration.

Indeed, that's exactly my feeling.

Most people I know really don't care *that*
much about the sort of things that demonstrations tend to cover - they, like
me, are just getting on with their own lives and doing the best they can to
create a secure future for their families.

Yes.

Sure there are things I might feel are wrong or with which I might disagree
(in my case this would, for example, include the recent war, the Bush visit
and the fox hunting ban) but I certainly wouldn't go on a demonstration
about them - I have better things to do with my time


Exactly so.

Marc.