On May 24, 7:51*pm, E27002 wrote:

On May 24, 11:40*am, Mizter T wrote:

On May 24, 7:06*pm, E27002 wrote:

On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote: Some pictures:
[snip]
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...rance_2010.JPG
[snip]
Thank you so much for posting. *I appreciate being able to see the new
service in operation from afar. *I note the implication that Brockley
Station is now "owned" by London Overground. *That is to say that the
TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo.

Don't want to bore anyone too much, but a correction and a
clarification follows...
[snip]
(b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain
in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks
above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London
Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL
- but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in
'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc.

Thank you for clarifying this Mizter T. *I know that the real estate
at Brockley belonged to Network Rail. *My understanding is that
according to convention the body with "operational ownership" had
their logo placed uppermost. *

It's a bit more complex than that - see my reply to Paul Scott's post
on this subject. If it was an LU station then the red LU roundel would
certainly be on top, as it is at Whitechapel, but at LO managed
stations then whether the orange LO roundel or the NR double-arrow
symbol is on top depends on whether or not it's defined as being an
'interchange' "with the rest of the National
Rail network" (and only if it's owned by Network Rail too).

By my estimation at New Cross Gate (to take one example) the NR logo
should be on top - I was there on Sunday... but I didn't notice! I'll
keep my eyes open.

[snip] And, AFIK (please correct me) the
original East London stretch remains the property (in the real estate
sense) of TfL.

Yes - though it was transferred internally within TfL from LUL to the
London Rail division. The new bits of the line north up to Dalston
Junction also belong to TfL London Rail.

On 24 May, 20:35, "Paul Scott" wrote:
MIG wrote:
Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley
station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London
Overground ..."

I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules
imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of
totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the
rush hour.

No, I think the staff were 'TUPE'd over last September, (or it might have
been at the SN franchise change date), but the automatic and 'human' PA
announcements are still run by SN, from their existing control centre. Given
the auto announcments are fully integrated with the signalling system, you'd
expect that to take a bit of altering...

Paul S

Which corresponds to what Mizter T was saying. Obviously I don't pay
attention to uniforms.

While I generally see little reason for TOC names padding out
announcements in an integrated network, It was actually slightly less
jarring than when station announcements in LM land, made by the same
LM voice from the same control centre say "Southern Railway
apologises ..." when the Southern services are delayed by the same
problems as the LM ones.

On 24 May, 20:30, Mizter T wrote:

Also, a week or so ago I dug up various bits and pieces on the web
about the situation at Brockley - seems TfL are aware of it, not least
because of the complaints that have come their way. There was also
talk of plans for a rebuild at Brockley so as to accommodate the
expected growth in passenger numbers that the ELL is expected to
generate.

Could there possibly be any case to be made for re-opening, or rather
be-building since almost nothing now remains of the original, of
Brockley Lane station as an interchange?

On 24 May, 20:50, Stephen Furley wrote:
On 24 May, 20:30, Mizter T wrote:

Also, a week or so ago I dug up various bits and pieces on the web
about the situation at Brockley - seems TfL are aware of it, not least
because of the complaints that have come their way. There was also
talk of plans for a rebuild at Brockley so as to accommodate the
expected growth in passenger numbers that the ELL is expected to
generate.

Could there possibly be any case to be made for re-opening, or rather
be-building since almost nothing now remains of the original, of
Brockley Lane station as an interchange?

I doubt if there would be any space for it now. I think it would be
lower on the list of priorities than a Brixtonish station, which could
also serve the ELL Phase 2.

On May 24, 8:31*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
On May 24, 7:46 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
(b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain
in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks
above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London
Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator
LOROL - but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more
involved in 'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc.

Everything in their own 'signs standards' suggests that sign is the
wrong way round, doesn't it?

Not sure about that actually - if memory serves me right, most of the
signs on the NLL are that way around, with the roundel at the top...
let me see... yes, roundel at the top, NR symbol below - examples:
---quote---
Where an Overground station interchanges with the rest of the National
Rail network and that property is owned by National Rail, it is the
National Rail logo that is displayed before the Overground roundel.
---/quote---

I've just thought of something else - which might add to the confusion.

The design standards refer to 'owned by National Rail' - if we read that as
'owned by a National Rail TOC', where 'owned by' is short for 'station
facility operator is' it makes sense. The station in this case is 'owned by
LO' even though the freeholder is Network Rail. IYSWIM...

Aha - and whoops - must admit I had speed-read that as being 'owned by
*Network Rail*', as opposed to "owned by National Rail". The plot
thickens - though perhaps it simply means 'part of the National Rail
network' , which is synonymous with 'owned by Network Rail'.

That would make some sense, because otherwise it would read as if TfL
were trying to impose their design guidelines on the (other) TOCs
'own' stations.

That said, the "Overground Network"-style line diagram signs - that
is, the *old* Overground Network (aka ON), the brand name now being
defunct, and not to be confused with TfL's own "London Overground" -
both continue to exist and new ones continue to be installed at
stations all over Greater London (i.e. far outside the south London
patch that the ON scheme covered - e.g. Dagenham Dock to name but one
example I saw recently.)

For those befuddled, this is the internet archive copy of the *old*
Overground Network website from 2006:
http://web.archive.org/web/200601101...ndnetwork.com/

On May 24, 8:44*pm, MIG wrote:

On 24 May, 20:30, Mizter T wrote:

On May 24, 8:07*pm, MIG wrote:
[snip]
Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley
station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London
Overground ..."

I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules
imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of
totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the
rush hour.

No, you assume wrong - Brockley and all the other stations south of NX
Gate that the ELL calls at, including Crystal Palace and West Croydon,
are managed by LO and have been since 20 September 2009 - this was the
date that the new south central franchise began, and so I was
considered an opportune date to transfer these stations across to LO.

I knew that bit, but I guessed that maybe they had subcontracted the
work to Southern, at least till LO services were running. *No doubt
it's the same actual people in any case.

On the ground, likely to be, yes - at least some of them, as LO have
been bringing in more (new) staff - plus the management structure
above them would have shifted significantly from Southern to LO. So
the ticket clerk might be the same but I wouldn't take that to mean
it's all staying the same.


The response on the ground to all the complaints seemed to be on the
lines of "we're not permitted to open the gate; you can complain to
these people" offer LO complaint forms. *No sense of being part of a
team, more like a distant imposition.

That's not a good impression to get, but it's probably an honest one,
in that it represents their frustration. TfL is a bit of a big
bureaucracy, and it's only too easy to imagine that the diktat has
come down from above that gates must be operational at all times when
the gateline is staffed - logic being that 'there are gates for a
reason, so they should be used'.


Anyway, it's not a great advert for the improved ambience that LO was
supposed to bring to desolate NLL and Southern stations.

In this case, no it's not - though Brockley is now likely to be
staffed rather more of the time than it ever was before. But that
doesn't excuse this situation away - it sounds pretty dire during the
peak. If it is that bad, then I'd suggest that people get on to Len
Duvall, the London Assembly member for Lewisham & Greenwich.


(Of course the south central franchise holder didn't change but
remained Govia's Southern.) The legal lettering on the ticket machines
changed at this time, but outwardly little else did - the staff got
new LO uniforms more recently. (I assume the announcements you heard
were long-line ones made by Southern's control centre as part of an
interim arrangement - presumably such announcements will now be made
from the new LO ELL control centre at NX Gate.)

Also, a week or so ago I dug up various bits and pieces on the web
about the situation at Brockley - seems TfL are aware of it, not least
because of the complaints that have come their way. There was also
talk of plans for a rebuild at Brockley so as to accommodate the
expected growth in passenger numbers that the ELL is expected to
generate.

There has been quite significant building work recently, with some new
landscaping and so on. *Strange they'd do that only to have to it over
again.

I'll try and find that reference - having dug it up I appear to have
buried it again! - but it seemed fairly clear that the TfL viewpoint
was that the current facilities are inadequate. (Of course, there's
not a lot of money left in the pot - but perhaps that might also help
to explain some of the focus on the gates, as this line basically used
to be a free ride for local journeys - no I didn't do it, but I'm not
stupid either - plus see how the farebox take on the NLL rocketed
after TfL took over and decided they'd actually try and collect some
fares, unlike Silverlink...)

On May 24, 8:50*pm, Stephen Furley wrote:

On 24 May, 20:30, Mizter T wrote:

Also, a week or so ago I dug up various bits and pieces on the web
about the situation at Brockley - seems TfL are aware of it, not least
because of the complaints that have come their way. There was also
talk of plans for a rebuild at Brockley so as to accommodate the
expected growth in passenger numbers that the ELL is expected to
generate.

Could there possibly be any case to be made for re-opening, or rather
be-building since almost nothing now remains of the original, of
Brockley Lane station as an interchange?

To be horribly boring, I'm afraid I don't think a decent case could
really be made that would justify such expenditure. I admit that
standing on the platforms at Brockley it does seem like a good idea
that those trains passing over the bridge should stop there too.

(If the SLL replacement service from Victoria to Bellingham, and
possibly beyond, had got the go ahead then Brockley-area pax could
have headed down to Crofton Park to catch this, but alas it's not to
be. One can still catch a Blackfriars-and-beyond-bound train from
Crofton Park to Nunhead or Denmark Hill and change for a Victoria
train.)

On May 24, 8:35*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

MIG wrote:
Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley
station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London
Overground ..."

I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules
imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of
totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the
rush hour.

No, I think the staff were 'TUPE'd over last September, (or it might have
been at the SN franchise change date), [...]

Which was last September! 20 Sept. to be precise.

[...] but the automatic and 'human' PA
announcements are still run by SN, from their existing control centre. Given
the auto announcments are fully integrated with the signalling system, you'd
expect that to take a bit of altering...

Might not the new LO ELL control centre at NX Gate do any long-line PA
announcements, the 'human' ones at least?

On May 24, 8:48*pm, MIG wrote:

On 24 May, 20:35, "Paul Scott" wrote:

MIG wrote:
Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley
station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London
Overground ..."

I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules
imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of
totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the
rush hour.

No, I think the staff were 'TUPE'd over last September, (or it might have
been at the SN franchise change date), but the automatic and 'human' PA
announcements are still run by SN, from their existing control centre. Given
the auto announcments are fully integrated with the signalling system, you'd
expect that to take a bit of altering...

Paul S

Which corresponds to what Mizter T was saying. *Obviously I don't pay
attention to uniforms.

I think they carried on wearing their old Southern uniforms for quite
some time, until fairly recently perhaps.


While I generally see little reason for TOC names padding out
announcements in an integrated network, It was actually slightly less
jarring than when station announcements in LM land, made by the same
LM voice from the same control centre say "Southern Railway
apologises ..." when the Southern services are delayed by the same
problems as the LM ones.

On the WCML it sounds like it should be "Network Rail apologises..."
much of the time (what with various signalling failures), at the
moment at least.

On 24 May, 21:27, Mizter T wrote:
On May 24, 8:44*pm, MIG wrote:





On 24 May, 20:30, Mizter T wrote:

On May 24, 8:07*pm, MIG wrote:
[snip]
Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley
station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London
Overground ..."

I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules
imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of
totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the
rush hour.

No, you assume wrong - Brockley and all the other stations south of NX
Gate that the ELL calls at, including Crystal Palace and West Croydon,
are managed by LO and have been since 20 September 2009 - this was the
date that the new south central franchise began, and so I was
considered an opportune date to transfer these stations across to LO.

I knew that bit, but I guessed that maybe they had subcontracted the
work to Southern, at least till LO services were running. *No doubt
it's the same actual people in any case.

On the ground, likely to be, yes - at least some of them, as LO have
been bringing in more (new) staff - plus the management structure
above them would have shifted significantly from Southern to LO. So
the ticket clerk might be the same but I wouldn't take that to mean
it's all staying the same.



The response on the ground to all the complaints seemed to be on the
lines of "we're not permitted to open the gate; you can complain to
these people" offer LO complaint forms. *No sense of being part of a
team, more like a distant imposition.

That's not a good impression to get, but it's probably an honest one,
in that it represents their frustration. TfL is a bit of a big
bureaucracy, and it's only too easy to imagine that the diktat has
come down from above that gates must be operational at all times when
the gateline is staffed - logic being that 'there are gates for a
reason, so they should be used'.

In this case, more staffing just means gate closed. It's better when
there are no staff.

Just for clarification, there is an old fashioned metal gate in a low
fence with a remotely-controlled electronic lock (you have to tailgate
someone with a buggy to get through).

This is the direct exit to the street through which people used to
pour from the "down" platform. Now there is an Oyster pad or two
there, but no other barrier than the metal gate.

Now to get across this low fence, everyone has to go up on the bridge,
where there is a small ticket office and gateline, just to go straight
down the other side of the fence.

The Oyster/ticket gates on the bridge are often kept open while
staffed due to the crowds which inevitably jam the bridge, but people
still have to queue down the stairs and along the platform.





Anyway, it's not a great advert for the improved ambience that LO was
supposed to bring to desolate NLL and Southern stations.

In this case, no it's not - though Brockley is now likely to be
staffed rather more of the time than it ever was before. But that
doesn't excuse this situation away - it sounds pretty dire during the
peak. If it is that bad, then I'd suggest that people get on to Len
Duvall, the London Assembly member for Lewisham & Greenwich.







(Of course the south central franchise holder didn't change but
remained Govia's Southern.) The legal lettering on the ticket machines
changed at this time, but outwardly little else did - the staff got
new LO uniforms more recently. (I assume the announcements you heard
were long-line ones made by Southern's control centre as part of an
interim arrangement - presumably such announcements will now be made
from the new LO ELL control centre at NX Gate.)

Also, a week or so ago I dug up various bits and pieces on the web
about the situation at Brockley - seems TfL are aware of it, not least
because of the complaints that have come their way. There was also
talk of plans for a rebuild at Brockley so as to accommodate the
expected growth in passenger numbers that the ELL is expected to
generate.

There has been quite significant building work recently, with some new
landscaping and so on. *Strange they'd do that only to have to it over
again.

I'll try and find that reference - having dug it up I appear to have
buried it again! - but it seemed fairly clear that the TfL viewpoint
was that the current facilities are inadequate. (Of course, there's
not a lot of money left in the pot - but perhaps that might also help
to explain some of the focus on the gates, as this line basically used
to be a free ride for local journeys - no I didn't do it, but I'm not
stupid either - plus see how the farebox take on the NLL rocketed
after TfL took over and decided they'd actually try and collect some
fares, unlike Silverlink...)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -