On 26/11/2012 12:42, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:34:02 on Mon, 26 Nov
2012, Graeme Wall remarked:

Anecdote time. I was on a tram in Brussels stopped in a traffic queue
and a passenger pursuaded the driver to let him off only to step
straight into the path of a car passing on the inside being in a
right-turn lane that had got the green light. The hazards of letting
people off willy nilly are real.

Agreed, which is why I suggested using only existing bus stops (or even
a subset of them).


Then we are back to the terms of the contract and the local authorities
rules and regulations on the usage of existing bus stops.

As an extension of the prohibitions I have noticed bus lanes in various
places now being signed as for buses on local stage services only, ie
private mini-buses and long-distance and excursion coaches can't use them.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

In message , Roland Perry
writes
In message , at 21:02:56 on Sat, 24 Nov
2012, Malcolm Loades remarked:
It may surprise you, but I promise it's true, that once passengers
realise that you will stop by request their requests become ever more
demanding. You drop one passenger and just as you pull away another
request is made for 'the next corner, please' which is less than 100
yards further on! It can become quite ridiculous but you can't then
start inventing rules like stops must be at least 800 yards apart!

You could always stipulate that the stops must be at marked bus stops.

OK. So you want me to announce to everyone before leaving the station
that I'll stop wherever they wish so long as it is at a bus stop? My bus
is a double decker normally used on fare stage work so there is no PA
which means that I must leave the cab and face all those sitting
downstairs, catch their attention and then tell them this very loudly.
Next I must go upstairs and repeat the process?

Or if there are only three people on the bus at the time, not be so
pedantic.

Of course it would be totally different if there were only 3 people on
the bus. I'm talking about typical loadings on typical days. Who's
being pedantic?

I'll leave you with one final thought. If you expect the replacement
bus to stop at the most convenient place for you do you expect the same
service from the train driver when there's no need of rail replacement?
When I use a train from London to get home it rattles through my nearest
station ( a mile from my house) at umpteen miles an hour and then stops
at the city's main station 8 miles further on. If you are consistent
and not just looking to make an argument you need to reassure us that
when the guard refuses to have the train stopped where you want he's
also told that he's unreasonable and a prat, just like you're calling
bus drivers.

Malcolm

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 26/11/2012 12:42, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:34:02 on Mon, 26 Nov
2012, Graeme Wall remarked:

Anecdote time. I was on a tram in Brussels stopped in a traffic queue
and a passenger pursuaded the driver to let him off only to step
straight into the path of a car passing on the inside being in a
right-turn lane that had got the green light. The hazards of letting
people off willy nilly are real.

Agreed, which is why I suggested using only existing bus stops (or even
a subset of them).


Then we are back to the terms of the contract and the local authorities
rules and regulations on the usage of existing bus stops.

As an extension of the prohibitions I have noticed bus lanes in various
places now being signed as for buses on local stage services only, ie
private mini-buses and long-distance and excursion coaches can't use them.

e.g. Bargate Street, Southampton.

--
PR

In message , at 13:26:06 on Mon, 26
Nov 2012, Graeme Wall remarked:
Agreed, which is why I suggested using only existing bus stops (or even
a subset of them).

Then we are back to the terms of the contract and the local authorities
rules and regulations on the usage of existing bus stops.

There are rarely any rules and regulations about stopping (ie to set
down or pick up passengers) at bus stops, except a few in city centres
that have "No stopping" plates (with an implied "Except buses", and
sometimes an explicit "Except taxis").

As an extension of the prohibitions I have noticed bus lanes in various
places now being signed as for buses on local stage services only, ie
private mini-buses and long-distance and excursion coaches can't use
them.

Which made me wonder if a "No Stopping" sign at a bus stop could be
similarly qualified to local stage buses only, but that's one more layer
of drill-down than I can comment on, off the top of my head.

Clearly, if a bus stop is *in* a bus lane, then whatever access rules
apply to the bus lane will apply to the stop.
--
Roland Perry

Portsmouth Rider wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 26/11/2012 12:42, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:34:02 on Mon, 26 Nov
2012, Graeme Wall remarked:

Anecdote time. I was on a tram in Brussels stopped in a traffic queue
and a passenger pursuaded the driver to let him off only to step
straight into the path of a car passing on the inside being in a
right-turn lane that had got the green light. The hazards of letting
people off willy nilly are real.
Agreed, which is why I suggested using only existing bus stops (or even
a subset of them).

Then we are back to the terms of the contract and the local authorities
rules and regulations on the usage of existing bus stops.

As an extension of the prohibitions I have noticed bus lanes in various
places now being signed as for buses on local stage services only, ie
private mini-buses and long-distance and excursion coaches can't use them.

e.g. Bargate Street, Southampton.

Not to mention a *lot* in London, which are labelled for TfL vehicles only.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In message , at 13:07:46 on Mon, 26
Nov 2012, John Williamson remarked:
The contract is drawn up in accordance with other rules.
Quite possibly, but all the rules/reasons can be addressed
individually, until common sense prevails.

Your version being common sense in your opinion, but not in the opinion
of anyone actually involved in running these services.

That's the problem

The rules are the rules, and are not, in general, negotiable.

Adding a couple of minutes into the schedule to accommodate the
intermediate stops (on the original route, we aren't asking for any
detours) is negotiable. And if we believe that a rail replacement bus is
not allowed to stop at a bus stop, it could stop 30ft further down the
road (subject to safety case), so that's another one gone. The insurance
and the contract with the bus company could be extended to include stops
en-route and the NCoC changed to mention that "set down only" BoJ at
approved intermediate stops was allowed on bustituted routes. Which I
think just leaves negotiating with the traffic commissioners about
whether the bus is in competition with local stage buses, and that's
where common sense says "no" - logistically it's not a regular service
it's just a series of one-off tour buses.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:01:02 on Mon, 26
Nov 2012, John Williamson remarked:
As an extension of the prohibitions I have noticed bus lanes in
various places now being signed as for buses on local stage services
only, ie private mini-buses and long-distance and excursion coaches
can't use them.

e.g. Bargate Street, Southampton.

Not to mention a *lot* in London, which are labelled for TfL vehicles only.

How often are there rail-replacement buses in London, rather than
ticket-acceptance on stage buses and alternative rail routes? (Genuine
question).

If there are, I'd expect them to stop at least at every station, which
are generally closer together than the 5-10 miles out here in the
country.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:26:06 on Mon, 26 Nov
2012, Graeme Wall remarked:
Agreed, which is why I suggested using only existing bus stops (or even
a subset of them).

Then we are back to the terms of the contract and the local authorities
rules and regulations on the usage of existing bus stops.

There are rarely any rules and regulations about stopping (ie to set down
or pick up passengers) at bus stops, except a few in city centres that
have "No stopping" plates (with an implied "Except buses", and sometimes
an explicit "Except taxis").


I can imagine our Roland stopping on a nice straight road, on a bus stop (no
layby!) when a bus comes along, and stops next to his car, with the front of
the bus close to the kerb in front of his cae, back of the bus close to the
kerb behind his car, and middle of the bus out in the middle of the road
next to his car. With railings on the kerbside, or a nice high kerb so he
can't drive off on the pavement (not that he would, thats a "Must Not"....).

And its a timing point - better still, a terminal point, and the bus has to
wait ten minutes! He'd be hopping up and down claiming "Imprisonment!"!

--
PR

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:07:46 on Mon, 26 Nov
2012, John Williamson remarked:
The contract is drawn up in accordance with other rules.
Quite possibly, but all the rules/reasons can be addressed
individually, until common sense prevails.

Your version being common sense in your opinion, but not in the opinion of
anyone actually involved in running these services.

That's the problem

The rules are the rules, and are not, in general, negotiable.

Adding a couple of minutes into the schedule to accommodate the
intermediate stops (on the original route, we aren't asking for any
detours) is negotiable. And if we believe that a rail replacement bus is
not allowed to stop at a bus stop, it could stop 30ft further down the
road (subject to safety case), so that's another one gone. The insurance
and the contract with the bus company could be extended to include stops
en-route and the NCoC changed to mention that "set down only" BoJ at
approved intermediate stops was allowed on bustituted routes. Which I
think just leaves negotiating with the traffic commissioners about whether
the bus is in competition with local stage buses, and that's where common
sense says "no" - logistically it's not a regular service it's just a
series of one-off tour buses.

But if the RSS does stop at bus stops, then it IS in competition,
effectively, with the Local Bus Service. You would have caught a local bus
back from the station to the bus stop at the end of the street. Now because
you used the RSS as stopper, that business has been denied to the local bus
service. Marginal, I know: but multiply it by all the other Rolands out
there.........

--
PR

In message , at
15:14:23 on Mon, 26 Nov 2012, Portsmouth Rider
remarked:
I can imagine our Roland stopping on a nice straight road, on a bus stop (no
layby!) when a bus comes along, and stops next to his car, with the front of
the bus close to the kerb in front of his cae, back of the bus close to the
kerb behind his car, and middle of the bus out in the middle of the road
next to his car.

As I'm only stopping to let someone out, by the time I've seen the bus
coming I'll have dumped the passenger off and be beating a retreat.
--
Roland Perry