"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 11:41:59 on Tue, 14 Jun 2016,
tim... remarked:
"We benefit" means the country's gross product benefits (as I said) but
we
get a big share of that. Remember that more trade equals more money
going
round of which we all get some, even if not as fair shares as many would
like.

And I see you ignored my last comment so I make it again

The idea that we would lose all of that trade if we left the EU is simply
preposterous

As this is Usenet then nothing is ever going to qualify as "all" (unless
it's something like "all of Queen Victoria's children are dead").

Even after trade negotiations with the EU, an exited UK will still have to
manufacture goods to the standards within the EU, without ever having had
a say in what those standards are.

well no change there then :-)


What may dry up quickest (but isn't necessarily a huge sum) is
cross-border trade covered by the successor to the Distance Selling
Directive, without whose safeguards consumers in the EU may be more
reluctant to buy from us.

There's also likely to be a big shakeup of travel ticketing (will CIV
survive?)

Um, when was the last time anyone (here) bought one of these across a UK
border

Surely almost everyone buys a point-to-point E* ticket.

I suppose there's the border on the Belfast-Dublin route. Can't remember
what type of ticket I had when I did that

as the whole low-cost flights thing is a result off EU deregulation, and
the allocation of slots is also an EU thing:

Low cost flights are based upon a "modern" business model.

Whilst slots at airports might play a role at the margins, they aren't the
difference between them existing, or not

tim

In message , at 16:08:24 on Tue, 14 Jun
2016, tim... remarked:

There's also likely to be a big shakeup of travel ticketing (will CIV
survive?)

Um, when was the last time anyone (here) bought one of these across a
UK border

Surely almost everyone buys a point-to-point E* ticket.

Plus the UK to StPancras leg, which is often substantially cheaper if
you buy the CIV ticket, especially in the peaks.

I suppose there's the border on the Belfast-Dublin route. Can't
remember what type of ticket I had when I did that

as the whole low-cost flights thing is a result off EU deregulation,
and the allocation of slots is also an EU thing:

Low cost flights are based upon a "modern" business model.

But business models need a regulatory framework within which they exist.
Scrap the framework and there could be trouble ahead.

Whilst slots at airports might play a role at the margins, they aren't
the difference between them existing, or not

They are at places like Heathrow (and UK to other very busy EU hubs).
That's for all flights, not just the low cost ones.
--
Roland Perry

Recliner wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:44:51 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 02:07:30AM -0700, solar penguin wrote:
On Monday, 13 June 2016 08:59:16 UTC+1, Recliner wrote:
But I wonder why you cite Croydon, which does have TfL
services, rather than Bromley and Bexley, which don't?
Just to be pedantic: Bromley has TfL London Overground services
from 3 stations in the borough.

Apart from the old East London line, isn't the Overground charged
as if it were a National Rail service?

No, TfL sets the fares, and the mayor can freeze them. LO also honours
the Freedom Pass all day, unlike other NR services.

Even then it is not that simple. Take the following Z1-2 fares

LO Hackney Downs - Liverpool Street 2.70 / 2.20
NR Wandsworth Town - Waterloo 2.70 / 2.20
LU Archway - Bank 2.90 / 2.40
NR+LU Wandsworth Town - Bank 4.30 / 3.70

LO currently charge the same as the NR rate so will it be frozen or
not? As for the NR+LU fare, will this be increased in full, or will
they try and split it out, freezing the LU portion while raising the NR
portion as normal?

Also for interavailable routes such as New Cross Gate - Sydenham,
Southern may have grounds for complaint as any fare freeze will lose
them revenue, depending on the terms of the agreement with TfL they may
be able to veto any freeze on their routes.

Peter Smyth

On 14/06/2016 09:37, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 13/06/2016 12:15, Basil Jet wrote:
* Sutton, which has trams

Strictly speaking true, but not that useful unless you want to go one
stop from Beddington Lane to Therapia Lane.

That's silly. It's like claiming that the northern line isn't that
useful for Merton residents as you can only travel between Colliers
Wood, South Wimbledon, and Mordon.

The benefit that the Northern Line brings to Merton is that enables
some Merton residents to leave Merton; likewise the tram and Sutton.

If you are there and just want to leave the borough of Sutton, crossing
the road would be simpler than catching a tram. All the houses around
Therapia Lane are in Croydon.



--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 16:08:24 on Tue, 14 Jun 2016,
tim... remarked:

There's also likely to be a big shakeup of travel ticketing (will CIV
survive?)

Um, when was the last time anyone (here) bought one of these across a UK
border

Surely almost everyone buys a point-to-point E* ticket.

Plus the UK to StPancras leg, which is often substantially cheaper if you
buy the CIV ticket, especially in the peaks.

I suppose there's the border on the Belfast-Dublin route. Can't remember
what type of ticket I had when I did that

as the whole low-cost flights thing is a result off EU deregulation, and
the allocation of slots is also an EU thing:

Low cost flights are based upon a "modern" business model.

But business models need a regulatory framework within which they exist.
Scrap the framework and there could be trouble ahead.

That framework doesn't rely upon the EU

if it did "Norwegian" couldn't compete (to name but one)


Whilst slots at airports might play a role at the margins, they aren't the
difference between them existing, or not

They are at places like Heathrow (and UK to other very busy EU hubs).

I know slots are in demand at LHR, it's why the cheepies don't fly from
there

That's for all flights, not just the low cost ones.

the last 20 years has shown us that the majors have to compete on fare with
the cheepies even if they do fly from the more convenient/popular airport

20 years of trying to persuade us to continue to pay the premium price
failed

tim




--
Roland Perry

On 14/06/2016 12:47, Roland Perry wrote:

As this is Usenet then nothing is ever going to qualify as "all" (unless
it's something like "all of Queen Victoria's children are dead").

Until the demise of Carl XVI Gustaf, at which point there will be at
least two alive (unless something bad happens in the mean time).


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On 14/06/2016 12:47, Roland Perry wrote:

There's also likely to be a big shakeup of travel ticketing (will CIV
survive?)

Yes, because [AIUI] CIV emerges from the Convention Concerning
International Carriage by Rail (COTIF) which is managed by the
Intergovernmental Organisation for International Carriage by Rail
(OTIF). OTIF lives in Switzerland and is an inter-governmental thing,
not an EU thing - although the EU is now a signatory to COTIF in its own
right, as well as the EU member states (except Malta and Cyprus) which
already were COTIF signatories.

A while ago there was a bit of a turf war between the EU and OTIF. In
the end it was recognised that it would be a bad idea to allow the EU to
disrupt the smooth workings of a much wider railway industry system
which already exists, and OTIF countries like Pakistan and Iran aren't
going to want to be subject to EU rules.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:19:23 +0100, Mizter T
wrote:


On 12/06/2016 17:48, JNugent wrote:

On 10/06/2016 22:42, Recliner wrote:
[...]
For example the page below doesn't mention that for residents of Bexley
or Bromley the freeze will have virtually no effect.

http://www.sadiq.london/sam_russell_bexley_bromley

True, though he does correctly say, "Sadiq Khan has a clear and costed
plan to freeze all TfL fares for the next four years, so you will
not pay a penny more in 2020 than you do in 2016."

He certainly doesn't say he will freeze *all* fares, only all TfL fares.

In that case, his promise is a non-sequitur for many Londoners, as
anyone who can remember the "supplementary rates" debacle(s).

For a Bromley or Bexley commuter (and I would guess also for
Kingston-upon-Thames), "[a] plan to freeze all TfL fares for the next
four years, so you will not pay a penny more in 2020 than you do in
2016" is just a lie.

If you are referring to rail fares from Bromley, Bexley or Kingston on
Thames, then these are NR fares not TfL fares. Simple fact.

Mizter T! Although absolutely factual (as usual) I think you miss the
suffering caused to us, the citizens of the RBK.

We have to put up with the train + "tube" fare scale, which already
puts us at a disadvantage, and many like me will be using a period
Travelcard. The latter at least is a joint product so our new mayor
is being a little devious when he says what he is (not) doing to TfL
fares. Still, at least the racist didn't get in.

Richard.

In message , at
18:53:24 on Tue, 14 Jun 2016, Arthur Figgis
remarked:
As this is Usenet then nothing is ever going to qualify as "all" (unless
it's something like "all of Queen Victoria's children are dead").

Until the demise of Carl XVI Gustaf, at which point there will be at
least two alive (unless something bad happens in the mean time).

Did they exhume the Queen in 1946 so she could give birth posthumously?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 18:49:14 on Tue, 14 Jun
2016, tim... remarked:

There's also likely to be a big shakeup of travel ticketing (will
CIV survive?)

Um, when was the last time anyone (here) bought one of these across a
UK border

Surely almost everyone buys a point-to-point E* ticket.

Plus the UK to StPancras leg, which is often substantially cheaper if
you buy the CIV ticket, especially in the peaks.

I suppose there's the border on the Belfast-Dublin route. Can't
remember what type of ticket I had when I did that

as the whole low-cost flights thing is a result off EU
deregulation, and the allocation of slots is also an EU thing:

Low cost flights are based upon a "modern" business model.

But business models need a regulatory framework within which they
exist. Scrap the framework and there could be trouble ahead.

That framework doesn't rely upon the EU

It relies entirely on the liberation contained in the so-called
"Aviation Packages" - collections of Directives and regulations
commencing in 1983. Google SN00182.pdf for more details.

if it did "Norwegian" couldn't compete (to name but one)

The UK would need whatever deal they've negotiated to fly intra-EU.

Whilst slots at airports might play a role at the margins, they
aren't the difference between them existing, or not

They are at places like Heathrow (and UK to other very busy EU hubs).

I know slots are in demand at LHR, it's why the cheepies don't fly from
there

The "Open Skies" agreement between the EU and USA is what governs the
allocation of slots at Heathrow, and hence the price of transatlantic
fares.

That's for all flights, not just the low cost ones.

the last 20 years has shown us that the majors have to compete on fare
with the cheepies even if they do fly from the more convenient/popular
airport

20 years of trying to persuade us to continue to pay the premium price
failed

If all fares originating in the UK go up, then competitively it's still
a level playing field for the airlines, but the passengers all pay more.
--
Roland Perry