"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , rob
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

I'm almost certain that the trolleybus depot was in Shepherd's Bush
Road, next to the old Osram Lamp Factory (now Tesco) facing Brook
Green,
and backing onto more LT land (the Hammersmith & City line depot).
There's a picture at http://www.trolleybus.net/resume.htm (scroll down
to the bottom left).

Afraid it wasn't! The old trolleybus depot and adjacent buildings were
located on the east side of the District/Picc. tube station.

Ah, thanks. Presumably the front was facing north onto the Broadway
itself? Looking again at the photo I mentioned I can see that the
traffic island would be one of those that used to run down the middle of
the Broadway.


It occurs to me that what is now the Hammersmith one-way system has had
a trolleybus depot on its north side, bus garages on the south and west
sides, the old Butterwick bus station on the east side and now the new
bus station in the middle. Quite a record!


I think you may be getting confused over roads here. The current Hammersmith
one-way system includes Hammersmith Broadway (leading to Hammersmith Rd) at
its northern side; Butter at its eastern side; Tailgate Road/Flyover at its
southern side and Queen Caroline St at its western side.
The old trolley bus depot (later BEA Coach base) was located where Butter
now is, I.e. on the eastern side. Thus it backed on to the District/Pick.
railway lines. After it was demolished, the road was widened and the old
Butter bus station was built. It too went as part of the redevelopment of
the whole area and the replacement bus station built above the new shopping
centre.

Rob Griffith

In message , rob
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

In message , rob
writes

Afraid it wasn't! The old trolleybus depot and adjacent buildings were
located on the east side of the District/Picc. tube station.

Ah, thanks. Presumably the front was facing north onto the Broadway
itself? Looking again at the photo I mentioned I can see that the
traffic island would be one of those that used to run down the middle of
the Broadway.

I think you may be getting confused over roads here.

Not so much getting confused as making a wrong assumption. I presumed
you to mean that the trolleybus depot was at A, but you are saying that
it was B:

----------------------------------------

Broadway
^
--------------- ^ -------- -------
X ^ | |
District X A | |
& Picc. X | |
Station X | |
X B |
| |
| C |

The old trolley bus depot (later BEA Coach base) was located where Butter
now is, I.e. on the eastern side. Thus it backed on to the District/Pick.
railway lines.

OK, but what I cannot understand is that before the one-way system was
constructed, the road that is now Butterwick (marked C above) is shown
on all the maps I have of the area (including the 1948 A-Z) as a narrow
dead-end alleyway called Foreman Court.

Now, the photo that I mentioned shows the garage in 1960, and that could
well be Butterwick that the trolley is turning into. But surely the
garage pre-dates the one-way system by some years, in which case how
would there have been access down Foreman Court?

Incidentally, I notice that the photo shows what appears to be a police
lamp to the right of the trolleybus garage - is that a clue or a red
herring?

--
Paul Terry

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
news
That photo shows the exit in Queen Caroline Street. The building is
still there (just), now converted to Smollensky's restaurant. When
coming off the A4 from the west it is the one brick building in a sea of
glass and concrete that is almost directly in front of you as you enter
the Hammersmith one-way system - although what you see is the back of
the original building (read on).

It has an extraordinary history - worth recounting for those that don't
know it. The garage was originally constructed in 1736 as Bradmore
House, a Georgian manor house built in the grounds of the huge
16th-century Butterwick House. The latter was demolished in 1836 and the
District Railway eventually built its Hammersmith terminus in the
grounds. Bradmore House itself survived and still looked pristine in
photos of the early 20th century.

Then, in an act of breathtaking vandalism, the London General Omnibus
Company purchased the Georgian building in 1913, removed its innards in
order to create a garage and knocked holes large enough to take
double-deckers in the back (the west side) of each of its wings. These
can be seen in photo 2 (below) that you found.

Later most of the front (east side) was removed in order to provide
access through the former front garden of the house to the new, larger
garage just round the corner (photo 3). It was all renamed Riverside
Garage in 1950.

The "restoration" of Bradmore House as part of the Broadway Centre in
the 1990s was a nice gesture - but as much because it relieves the vast
and undistinguished bulk of the rest, rather than as a real restoration
as such. A little of the rear (west) facade was saved - click the link
at http://www.lambsbricks.com/nav/info_projects_03.htm - but most of it
is totally new construction in the style of the original.

Fascinating.

I remember it as a Post Office and had no idea of its transport connections.

Some recent (taken today) pictures of what's left of Bradmore House are he
http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house1.jpg
http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house2.jpg
http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house3.jpg
http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house4.jpg


Robin

In message , Robin Cox
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
news

It has an extraordinary history - worth recounting for those that don't
know it. The garage was originally constructed in 1736 as Bradmore
House, a Georgian manor house built in the grounds of the huge
16th-century Butterwick House.

(snip)

Fascinating.

I remember it as a Post Office and had no idea of its transport connections.

And nor did I when I lived in Hammersmith (just off Brook Green) nearly
30 years ago - in those days the inner part of the one-way system was a
mixture of hopeless dereliction combined with distant glimpses of the
1940s (remember the tar-stained Clarendon?). I still think the Broadway
Centre is a monument to much that is worst in local-authority planning -
50 years of indolence followed by a rush to create a maximum-revenue
cliff-face of mediocre buildings encompassing a bus station that was too
cramped from the outset.

The fact that there is decent architecture only yards away (The Ark, St
Paul's Church, Hammersmith Bridge, the RIBA-plaudited Surgery and much
more) only serves to highlight by contrast the vacuity of the final plan
for the Broadway Centre.

Some recent (taken today) pictures of what's left of Bradmore House are he
http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house1.jpg
http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house2.jpg
http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house3.jpg
http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house4.jpg

I don't know how you managed to get such traffic-free photos on the
Hammersmith one-way - house2.jpg in particular seems to capture
something of the original!

--
Paul Terry

"Robin Cox" wrote in message
...
"Paul Terry" wrote in message
news
That photo shows the exit in Queen Caroline Street. The building is
still there (just), now converted to Smollensky's restaurant. When
coming off the A4 from the west it is the one brick building in a sea of
glass and concrete that is almost directly in front of you as you enter
the Hammersmith one-way system - although what you see is the back of
the original building (read on).

It has an extraordinary history - worth recounting for those that don't
know it. The garage was originally constructed in 1736 as Bradmore
House, a Georgian manor house built in the grounds of the huge
16th-century Butterwick House. The latter was demolished in 1836 and the
District Railway eventually built its Hammersmith terminus in the
grounds. Bradmore House itself survived and still looked pristine in
photos of the early 20th century.

Then, in an act of breathtaking vandalism, the London General Omnibus
Company purchased the Georgian building in 1913, removed its innards in
order to create a garage and knocked holes large enough to take
double-deckers in the back (the west side) of each of its wings. These
can be seen in photo 2 (below) that you found.

Later most of the front (east side) was removed in order to provide
access through the former front garden of the house to the new, larger
garage just round the corner (photo 3). It was all renamed Riverside
Garage in 1950.

The "restoration" of Bradmore House as part of the Broadway Centre in
the 1990s was a nice gesture - but as much because it relieves the vast
and undistinguished bulk of the rest, rather than as a real restoration
as such. A little of the rear (west) facade was saved - click the link
at http://www.lambsbricks.com/nav/info_projects_03.htm - but most of it
is totally new construction in the style of the original.

Fascinating.

I remember it as a Post Office and had no idea of its transport
connections.

Some recent (taken today) pictures of what's left of Bradmore House are
he
http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house1.jpg
http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house2.jpg
http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house3.jpg
http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house4.jpg


Robin

The old Hammersmith Post Office was a bit further along from Bradmore
House - see pic 1 in Piccadilly Pilot's earlier posting - its the tall
building to the left.

Robert Griffith

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , rob
writes

In message , rob
writes

Afraid it wasn't! The old trolleybus depot and adjacent buildings were
located on the east side of the District/Picc. tube station.

Ah, thanks. Presumably the front was facing north onto the Broadway
itself? Looking again at the photo I mentioned I can see that the
traffic island would be one of those that used to run down the middle
of
the Broadway.

I think you may be getting confused over roads here.

Not so much getting confused as making a wrong assumption. I presumed
you to mean that the trolleybus depot was at A, but you are saying that
it was B:

----------------------------------------

Broadway
^
--------------- ^ -------- -------
X ^ | |
District X A | |
& Picc. X | |
Station X | |
X B |
| |
| C |

The old trolley bus depot (later BEA Coach base) was located where Butter
now is, I.e. on the eastern side. Thus it backed on to the District/Pick.
railway lines.

OK, but what I cannot understand is that before the one-way system was
constructed, the road that is now Butterwick (marked C above) is shown
on all the maps I have of the area (including the 1948 A-Z) as a narrow
dead-end alleyway called Foreman Court.

Now, the photo that I mentioned shows the garage in 1960, and that could
well be Butterwick that the trolley is turning into. But surely the
garage pre-dates the one-way system by some years, in which case how
would there have been access down Foreman Court?

Incidentally, I notice that the photo shows what appears to be a police
lamp to the right of the trolleybus garage - is that a clue or a red
herring?

--
Paul Terry

Foreman Court ran between the garage and the railway. Butterwick road was
created when the garage and surrounding buildings were demolished. Prior to
that all traffic travelled around what is now the one-way Queen Caroline St
(to the west). I have re-checked and I stand slightly corrected in so far as
the garage ran roughly north/south, I.e. parallel with Foreman Court/railway
and its entrance was actually from Great Church St. I think therefore that
the trolley you mention is turning into that Street. Unable to establish if
the original Police Stn was also in that area. Hope this makes sense.

Robert Griffith

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , rob
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

OK, but what I cannot understand is that before the one-way system was
constructed, the road that is now Butterwick (marked C above) is shown
on all the maps I have of the area (including the 1948 A-Z) as a narrow
dead-end alleyway called Foreman Court.

Now, the photo that I mentioned shows the garage in 1960, and that
could
well be Butterwick that the trolley is turning into. But surely the
garage pre-dates the one-way system by some years, in which case how
would there have been access down Foreman Court?

Foreman Court ran between the garage and the railway.

That makes sense to me.

Butterwick road was created when the garage and surrounding buildings
were demolished.

So what is the trolleybus in the photo that I referenced turning into as
it leaves the (not-demolished) depot?

Prior to that all traffic travelled around what is now the one-way
Queen Caroline St (to the west).

But how did west-bound traffic get down to Queen Caroline Street?
According to maps of the era there was no access from Hammersmith Road
until after passing through the Broadway and turning left after the
District/Piccadilly station.

I have re-checked and I stand slightly corrected in so far as
the garage ran roughly north/south, I.e. parallel with Foreman
Court/railway
and its entrance was actually from Great Church St.

I'd be happy with the N-S alignment, but if its entrance was in Great
Church Street, this would make it co-terminus with the bus garage that
was re-named as Riverside in 1950 specifically in order to avoid
confusion with the trolleybus depot somewhere else in Hammersmith - this
is the very confusion that the OP had hoped to resolve. I now don't know
now if we have helped or added to that confusion!

The Great Church Street depot is shown at
http://www.piccadillypilot.co.uk/hmbus/HMbsgrg03.jpg

and it seems to me very obvious that this is totally different from the
bottom-left picture of the Hammersmith Trolleybus depot shown at

http://www.trolleybus.net/resume.htm

--
Paul Terry

Riverside garage (Bradmore House) as shown in the above mentioned pic, had
its entrance in Great Church St and its exit in Queen Caroline St. It was
(and still is) to the west of the railway lines.
Hammersmith Tram Depot, later the Trolleybus depot, was also located on
Great Church St but, on the east side of the railway lines. Referring to the
above mentioned pic, it was roughly where the modern building on the right
hand side of the pic is.
Not altogether surprising the two were close to each other bearing in mind
their histories - one an old omnibus garage and the other a tram depot.
As to the trolleybus pics, I guess they were taken showing the vehicles
turning into Great Church St.
Incidentally there is an excellent book giving the histories of all LT bus
garages written by J Joyce published by Ian Allan. I can recommend it! End
of advert.
Robert Griffith

rob wrote:
"Paul Terry" wrote in
message ...

Foreman Court ran between the garage and the railway.
Butterwick road was created when the garage and surrounding
buildings were demolished. Prior to that all traffic
travelled around what is now the one-way Queen Caroline St
(to the west). I have re-checked and I stand slightly
corrected in so far as the garage ran roughly north/south,
I.e. parallel with Foreman Court/railway and its entrance
was actually from Great Church St. I think therefore that
the trolley you mention is turning into that Street. Unable
to establish if the original Police Stn was also in that
area. Hope this makes sense.

Here's an extract from a late 50s/early 60 A-Z of the area.

http://www.piccadillypilot.co.uk/hmbus/HMBdy.jpg

"Nick Hewitt" wrote in message
om...
Hi people. This is a bit long, so please bear with me. I am trying to
track down a number of past & present ex-LT bus garages. They are :-

1) The original Kingston garage in Richmond Road. Where on Richmond
Road was it?

I remember a bus garage by the railway station in what I think is called
Wood Street. It was there when we went in hunt of some of the last RFs in (LT)
service which would make it mid 70s. The entrance faced the railway line and
the exit faced west so buses leaving would go past the entrance! there was
some additional parking (bus) in a yard between Wood Str & the railway and the
garage entrance I am thinking of had some sort of restriction on it, ban on DMS
class or similar (either too wide or high) which would explain why it was
disposed of
snip

8) Sovereign Buses had a depot somewhere in Borehamwood, in the days
when it was called BTS (BT survives as a depot code for vehicles
allocated to Edgware). Where was this depot in Borehamwood?

As someone else replied, it was beside the railway @ Elstree & Bwd. stn, on
the Left going towards London and you could just about hamg over the fence to
look into the yard (access would have been to carry on down the raod past the
railway station /car yard). Interestingly they appeared to garage some of the
central area RMs which had dedicated route livery (route 8 was it) which of
course did not operate this far out.

snip

12) The original Uxbridge depot (before the present one next to the
tube station) was in Denham Road. Exactly where?

This was outside the GLC border and also off any bus route it serviced
(which at the time I believe made it unique. On the NE (RH) side of the A4020
towards the M40 junction, it was just past the canal/River bridges, about 1st or
2nd building IIRC. Somewhere I should have a London Bus Map of the previous
Ken L. vintage showing this site

snip

IanB

Incidentally, I notice that the photo shows what appears to be a police
lamp to the right of the trolleybus garage - is that a clue or a red
herring?

--
Paul Terry

I don't think that is a Police lamp - it is too high up, too small (in my
estimation of the scale) and Police lamps usually had (have) a Crown on the
top.

Marc.