Recliner wrote on 04 December 2013 20:27:55 ...
John Levine wrote:
They won't have less than one member of staff on a train, so no savings
there.

Hmmn. What does the Paris Metro know that TfL doesn't?

How to build tunnels with walkways?

I think only line 14 in Paris has walkways, but generally all Paris
Métro tunnels are double-track, except for a few short lenths of
single-track tunnel. This means that it's easy to gain access to a
failed train by ladders/steps from the adjacent track, or by driving a
train on that track, stopping opposite the failed train, and using
boards to bridge the gap between the trains.

On LU deep tubes, any evacuation has to take place via the front or rear
end of the train (the 'M' door), and external help can only reach
passengers via those doors. In theory, that could all be done without a
staff member being on the train, but I guess it's felt that in such a
constrained environment there is value in having someone on the train.

There was an interesting report in Le Parisien newspaper last month that
said that dwell times had reduced on line 1 since it became driverless,
as passengers had become more disciplined because they knew there wasn't
a driver to hold the doors open for a bit longer if they were slow in
boarding.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Recliner wrote on 04 December 2013 20:27:55 ...
John Levine wrote:
They won't have less than one member of staff on a train, so no savings
there.

Hmmn. What does the Paris Metro know that TfL doesn't?

How to build tunnels with walkways?

I think only line 14 in Paris has walkways, but generally all Paris
Métro tunnels are double-track, except for a few short lenths of
single-track tunnel. This means that it's easy to gain access to a
failed train by ladders/steps from the adjacent track, or by driving a
train on that track, stopping opposite the failed train, and using
boards to bridge the gap between the trains.

On LU deep tubes, any evacuation has to take place via the front or rear
end of the train (the 'M' door), and external help can only reach
passengers via those doors. In theory, that could all be done without a
staff member being on the train, but I guess it's felt that in such a
constrained environment there is value in having someone on the train.

There was an interesting report in Le Parisien newspaper last month that
said that dwell times had reduced on line 1 since it became driverless,
as passengers had become more disciplined because they knew there wasn't
a driver to hold the doors open for a bit longer if they were slow in
boarding.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 22:34:30 +0000
"Richard J." wrote:
There was an interesting report in Le Parisien newspaper last month that
said that dwell times had reduced on line 1 since it became driverless,
as passengers had become more disciplined because they knew there wasn't
a driver to hold the doors open for a bit longer if they were slow in
boarding.

Some drivers on LU seem to be rather slow to close the doors even when
there's no one left on the platform. They waste a good 5 - 10 seconds at
each stop which probably buggers up the timetable nicely by the time they've
got to the other end of the line.

--
Spud

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013 05:46:23 -0800 (PST), ian batten
wrote:

On Tuesday, 3 December 2013 15:15:07 UTC, 77002 wrote:


sub-surface, stations. There needs to be a manned passimeter

Hardly. To cite one example I use regularly, Totteridge and Whetstone has the gates locked open most afternoons and evening.

How frequent are the trains at Totteridge and Whetstone? What I had
in mind are stations in the outer reaches of the Central and
Metropolitan Lines. At those there can be a wait fora train.

To give an example outwith TfL: Thirty years back my (UK) local
station was an uninviting pair of platforms. Years into the black and
white signage era the unloved station buildings had peeling green
pain.

It was the sort of station where after dark, passengers, especially
lady passengers, walked briskly to the taxi rank, or the parking lot.

Today the station is regularly painted in SWT colors. The booking
hall is staffed. These folks are helpful. One character is
particularly chirpy and jovial. There is an occasional staff presence
on the platforms. Elevators for the disabled have also been added.

Both platforms now have refreshment facilities that also sell
newspapers and magazines. The station no longer has an edge. Indeed
it is a pleasure to utilize it.

--

http://www.991fmtalk.com/ The DMZ in Reno

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013, Aurora wrote:

To give an example outwith TfL: Thirty years back my (UK) local
station was an uninviting pair of platforms.

Today the station is regularly painted in SWT colors. The booking
hall is staffed. Both platforms now have refreshment facilities that
also sell newspapers and magazines. The station no longer has an
edge.

Talking from another country ...

I was always puzzled by the fact in London tube stations had dedicated
staff selling tickets, and dedicated staff collecting tickets on exit
on lifts (a civilized device though !) or excess fares (another
civilized institution !), and bus had conductors ...

.... here in Milan conductors on trams and buses were eliminated in 1970
(to save money), and tickets in metro stations have always been sold by
newsagents (i.e. not ATM staff - despite the fact stations had and still
have an ATM agent in a box doing essentially nothing). Only the newer M5
is totally unmanned (also the trains are driverless).

.... instead the trend to have unmanned rural or suburban *railway*
stations, without a ticket office, is relatively recent in Italy (and
also motivated to save money, as the disappearance of left luggage
facilities in medium-sized stations), but has contributed to make
stations dirtier and less pleasant.

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 16:17:14 +0100, Giovanni Drogo
wrote:

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013, Aurora wrote:

To give an example outwith TfL: Thirty years back my (UK) local
station was an uninviting pair of platforms.

Today the station is regularly painted in SWT colors. The booking
hall is staffed. Both platforms now have refreshment facilities that
also sell newspapers and magazines. The station no longer has an
edge.

Talking from another country ...

snip

... here in Milan conductors on trams and buses were eliminated in 1970
(to save money), and tickets in metro stations have always been sold by
newsagents (i.e. not ATM staff - despite the fact stations had and still
have an ATM agent in a box doing essentially nothing). Only the newer M5
is totally unmanned (also the trains are driverless).

... instead the trend to have unmanned rural or suburban *railway*
stations, without a ticket office, is relatively recent in Italy (and
also motivated to save money, as the disappearance of left luggage
facilities in medium-sized stations), but has contributed to make
stations dirtier and less pleasant.

Exactly, and, over time, that does not discourage criiminals. Clean
bright stations, with ample human presence make for a pleasant safe
environment.
--

http://www.991fmtalk.com/ The DMZ in Reno

d wrote on 05 December 2013 09:27:42 ...
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 22:34:30 +0000
"Richard J." wrote:
There was an interesting report in Le Parisien newspaper last month that
said that dwell times had reduced on line 1 since it became driverless,
as passengers had become more disciplined because they knew there wasn't
a driver to hold the doors open for a bit longer if they were slow in
boarding.

Some drivers on LU seem to be rather slow to close the doors even when
there's no one left on the platform. They waste a good 5 - 10 seconds at
each stop which probably buggers up the timetable nicely by the time they've
got to the other end of the line.

If it's the Piccadilly line, that sort of thing will ensure they don't
run early against the leisurely timetable. I guess they think it's
better to waste a few seconds here and there instead of being held at a
station further down the line for a couple of minutes "to regulate the
service".
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

d wrote on 05 December 2013 09:27:42 ...
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 22:34:30 +0000
"Richard J." wrote:
There was an interesting report in Le Parisien newspaper last month that
said that dwell times had reduced on line 1 since it became driverless,
as passengers had become more disciplined because they knew there wasn't
a driver to hold the doors open for a bit longer if they were slow in
boarding.

Some drivers on LU seem to be rather slow to close the doors even when
there's no one left on the platform. They waste a good 5 - 10 seconds at
each stop which probably buggers up the timetable nicely by the time they've
got to the other end of the line.

If it's the Piccadilly line, that sort of thing will ensure they don't
run early against the leisurely timetable. I guess they think it's
better to waste a few seconds here and there instead of being held at a
station further down the line for a couple of minutes "to regulate the
service".
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 21:15:31 +0000, "Richard J."
wrote:

wrote on 05 December 2013 09:27:42 ...
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 22:34:30 +0000
"Richard J." wrote:
There was an interesting report in Le Parisien newspaper last month that
said that dwell times had reduced on line 1 since it became driverless,
as passengers had become more disciplined because they knew there wasn't
a driver to hold the doors open for a bit longer if they were slow in
boarding.

Some drivers on LU seem to be rather slow to close the doors even when
there's no one left on the platform. They waste a good 5 - 10 seconds at
each stop which probably buggers up the timetable nicely by the time they've
got to the other end of the line.

If it's the Piccadilly line, that sort of thing will ensure they don't
run early against the leisurely timetable. I guess they think it's
better to waste a few seconds here and there instead of being held at a
station further down the line for a couple of minutes "to regulate the
service".

If the timings are the same for peak and non-peak periods, then the
stops will be longer than needed off-peak or the trains will run
slower between stops.

Clark Morris

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 18:46:13 +0100, "tim......"
wrote:


"Graham Nye" wrote in message
...
On 05/12/2013 10:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 05/12/2013 10:16, Sam Wilson wrote:

I had to look up "passimeter"...

In LT/TfL's case they were electrically operated but the principal was
the same.

http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r152.html has a description of
the system.

Thanks for the link.

"The "Rapid" machine ... prints, cuts and delivers the ticket, and can
issue four a second."

A trick that modern TVMs seem to have forgotten.

I'm sure that they can manage a 4 second delivery time


That would be four tickets in one second, not four seconds to deliver
one ticket. Which is about what the TVMs take in SWT territory. To
buy and print a return pair with a receipt takes a while. The
cheerful chappy at the window does much better. :-)
--

http://www.991fmtalk.com/ The DMZ in Reno