In message , at 15:07:28 on Sat, 14
Mar 2015, Neil Williams remarked:

Something's wrong if it's tight.

I'm only comfortable if it's so loose it looks untidy.

Then there's something wrong with your collars.

And there's nothing more distracting than one person turning up in
£500 worth of Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen impression. The first thought
through many people's minds will be "did he get dressed in the dark
and forgot to put on his cufflinks?"

Only if they're really uptight about dress.

They aren't uptight about dress, more they don't want to be distracted
by people making fashion statements when they are supposed to be making
serious technical or policy statements.

But then I suppose Sir Alan's part of the IT industry was curiously
formal compared with the rest of it.

Lord Sugar, now, of course. And yes, most of his people who had any
contact with the outside world would wear a suit and tie, just like he
and Nick still do on "The Apprentice", and most of the male contestants
too. Here's the winner of the first series:

http://www2.vismedia.co.uk/newslette...05/amstrad.jpg

Several of the female contestants dress as masculinely as possible, to
avoid people looking at what they are wearing rather than listening to
what they are saying. The opposite is a useful tactic in other
circumstances, but it's important to dress appropriately for the
occasion.

And back in the 80's most of the public-facing personal computer people
wore suits - although Hermann Hauser pushed the envelope (as they say)
with a trademark polo-neck jumper or cravatte underneath much of the
time.

Just to prove that there were exceptions to that:

http://www.cabume.co.uk/images/stori...startups10.jpg

It's almost impossible to find a photo of Clive Sinclair not wearing a
suit and tie; and look: here's the two of them:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...3_1417899i.jpg

This is what I wore to the office around then (1985), my jacket would be
hanging on the back of a chair. [You can also see one of my engineering
staff with a tie on in the background].

When I was trying to "look cool" in front of end-users at the weekend I
might dress like this [the full t-shirt slogan was "I built Arnold"],
but there's still a jacket:

http://cpcrulez.fr/im4/3/Roland_Perr..._Show-1985.jpg

Sometimes it wouldn't be a suit jacket, and I did have rather long hair
(for current tastes):

http://www.retrogamer.net/wp-content...1/more-roland-
603x630.png

After I left Amstrad this was my provocatively casual publicity photo:

http://perso.wanadoo.es/amstradcpc/i...olandperry.jpg

Continuing the cap theme, 25yrs later Bruce Schneier turned up to an
OECD meeting I was at, wearing his signature cloth cap, an open shirt,
and jeans; and although you may regard it as prejudiced, the main
reaction from the people round the table was clearly "who is this idiot,
and how quickly can we get him to stop talking".

He *does* have a shirt/tie/suit though:

http://www.american.edu/uploads/stan...ruce-Schneier-
300x200.jpg
--
Roland Perry

On 2015-03-14 16:51:59 +0000, Roland Perry said:

They aren't uptight about dress, more they don't want to be distracted
by people making fashion statements when they are supposed to be making
serious technical or policy statements.

A short sleeved shirt and a pair of chinos is hardly a "fashion
statement", it is a practical, comfortable and tidy-looking outfit.

Several of the female contestants dress as masculinely as possible, to
avoid people looking at what they are wearing rather than listening to
what they are saying. The opposite is a useful tactic in other
circumstances, but it's important to dress appropriately for the
occasion.

I must say I find the ability of women to be accepted in relatively
casual dress in offices but not men to be somewhat discriminatory.
While I dislike a "you must wear a suit" rule, if one is imposed it
should surely apply to all those in the office whether male or female.
And vice versa.

After I left Amstrad this was my provocatively casual publicity photo:

http://perso.wanadoo.es/amstradcpc/i...olandperry.jpg

You think that is "provocatively casual"? Crikey.

Continuing the cap theme, 25yrs later Bruce Schneier turned up to an
OECD meeting I was at, wearing his signature cloth cap, an open shirt,
and jeans; and although you may regard it as prejudiced, the main
reaction from the people round the table was clearly "who is this idiot,
and how quickly can we get him to stop talking".

Then they are prejudiced fools, unless of course the topic of his talk
was not interesting in and of itself!

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

In message , at 16:51:59 on Sat, 14
Mar 2015, Roland Perry remarked:

This is what I wore to the office around then (1985), my jacket would be
hanging on the back of a chair. [You can also see one of my engineering
staff with a tie on in the background].

missed out the url:

http://www.retrogamer.net/wp-content.../roland-perry-
young.png
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 17:10:47 on Sat, 14
Mar 2015, Neil Williams remarked:
On 2015-03-14 16:51:59 +0000, Roland Perry said:

They aren't uptight about dress, more they don't want to be distracted
by people making fashion statements when they are supposed to be making
serious technical or policy statements.

A short sleeved shirt and a pair of chinos is hardly a "fashion
statement", it is a practical, comfortable and tidy-looking outfit.

But not in any business meetings. At best it looks as if your luggage
got lost on the plane on theh way there.

After I left Amstrad this was my provocatively casual publicity photo:
http://perso.wanadoo.es/amstradcpc/i...olandperry.jpg

You think that is "provocatively casual"? Crikey.

It was in 1990, when I was trying to get blue-chip companies as clients.

Continuing the cap theme, 25yrs later Bruce Schneier turned up to an
OECD meeting I was at, wearing his signature cloth cap, an open shirt,
and jeans; and although you may regard it as prejudiced, the main
reaction from the people round the table was clearly "who is this idiot,
and how quickly can we get him to stop talking".

Then they are prejudiced fools,

Their main prejudice being "why would this person feel the need to make
a statement by his manner of dress, why won't his arguments speak for
themselves".

unless of course the topic of his talk was not interesting in and of
itself!

It was interesting, but not for the reasons he intended.
--
Roland Perry

On 2015-03-14 20:29:30 +0000, Roland Perry said:

But not in any business meetings. At best it looks as if your luggage
got lost on the plane on theh way there.

Depends what the "business meeting" is (in 2015)!

Their main prejudice being "why would this person feel the need to make
a statement by his manner of dress, why won't his arguments speak for
themselves".

That formal business wear is staid and uncomfortable? But it has
nothing to do with the point. I'm more interested in what people
say/do than how they dress, within reason. If their outfit was
scruffy, torn, unironed etc I would see your point, but tidy clothes
are tidy clothes whether a suit or a less formal shirt and trousers.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 2015-03-14 17:41:00 +0000, Roland Perry said:

In message , at 16:51:59 on Sat, 14
Mar 2015, Roland Perry remarked:

This is what I wore to the office around then (1985), my jacket would be
hanging on the back of a chair. [You can also see one of my engineering
staff with a tie on in the background].

missed out the url:

http://www.retrogamer.net/wp-content.../roland-perry-
young.png

I don't see why something like this:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/14/article-2580874-1C47431C00000578-884_634x903.jpg


looks any less appropriate. As to a jacket on the back of the chair,
what's the point? That's where mine would invariably end up, which is
why I've given up wearing one in most cases. A black windproof fleece
that I usually wear is more practical against the weather, and
similarly comes off and goes on the chair when I walk into the office.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

In message , at 10:30:01 on Sun, 15 Mar
2015, Neil Williams remarked:
On 2015-03-14 20:29:30 +0000, Roland Perry said:

But not in any business meetings. At best it looks as if your luggage
got lost on the plane on theh way there.

Depends what the "business meeting" is (in 2015)!

Not buying and selling widgets.

Their main prejudice being "why would this person feel the need to
make a statement by his manner of dress, why won't his arguments
speak for themselves".

That formal business wear is staid and uncomfortable?

You keep coming back to the comfort issue. I find it *more* comfortable
than most "casual" wear. "Staid" just means 'simple and accessible'.

But it has nothing to do with the point. I'm more interested in what
people say/do than how they dress, within reason. If their outfit was
scruffy, torn, unironed etc I would see your point, but tidy clothes
are tidy clothes whether a suit or a less formal shirt and trousers.

The less formal stuff still gets in the way, if you are the odd one out
in the meetings where I'm wearing a suit (and you would be).
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 10:32:35 on Sun, 15 Mar
2015, Neil Williams remarked:
On 2015-03-14 17:41:00 +0000, Roland Perry said:

In message , at 16:51:59 on Sat, 14
Mar 2015, Roland Perry remarked:

This is what I wore to the office around then (1985), my jacket
would be
hanging on the back of a chair. [You can also see one of my engineering
staff with a tie on in the background].
missed out the url:
http://www.retrogamer.net/wp-content.../roland-perry-
young.png

I don't see why something like this:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...-1C47431C00000
578-884_634x903.jpg

looks any less appropriate.

It's smart, but very business-like.

As to a jacket on the back of the chair, what's the point?

To be easy to grab when going out of the office.

That's where mine would invariably end up, which is why I've given up
wearing one in most cases. A black windproof fleece that I usually
wear is more practical against the weather, and similarly comes off and
goes on the chair when I walk into the office.

That's similar to what I have for use when I'm going shopping. But I
wouldn't wear that to London.
--
Roland Perry

On 2015-03-15 11:26:42 +0000, Roland Perry said:

As to a jacket on the back of the chair, what's the point?

To be easy to grab when going out of the office.

So it can provide almost no protection against cold/wind/rain?

That's where mine would invariably end up, which is why I've given up
wearing one in most cases. A black windproof fleece that I usually
wear is more practical against the weather, and similarly comes off and
goes on the chair when I walk into the office.

That's similar to what I have for use when I'm going shopping. But I
wouldn't wear that to London.

I do every time (except summer).

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 05:18:03PM +0000, d wrote:
On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 14:07:30 +0000
David Cantrell wrote:
I don't think you're right there. Most of Chelmsford is within a thirty
minute walk of the station.
A 30 min walk to the station is pushing it for a daily commute, especially if
its freezing cold or ****ing down.

I did it for about a year. A bit of rain or cold didn't hurt me.

--
David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information

When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life
-- Samuel Johnson