Mait001 wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 18 Dec 2004:

Someone else, whose attribution has been snipped, wrote:

What you did not mention, is the option for passengers to stay on the
train to T1,2,3 station and then get Heathrow Express on to terminal
4, without any steps to traverse.

Is it really the case that nobody will have to use steps to get to the railway
platforms, whichever platform is used by the arriving Piccadilly Line train?
If so, I agree that this will be CONSIDERABLY easier (depending on the
frequency of the railway trains) than the bus nonsense.

Indeed - I can't imagine why anybody would go any other way. I
certainly wouldn't. Not that I usually go to Heathrow that way, anyway,
but I like the Heathrow Express between the terminals! Think how
crowded those buses are going to be.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 18 December 2004

Matt Wheeler wrote:

I'm sure they do understand, hence the replacement bus service, and
the publicity of the works. Since Terminal 5 is happening, how would
you propose extending the Picadilly line to that terminal without an
enforced closure of parts of the line. Or would you rather the
Terminal 5 passengers (when complete) are inconvenienced by poor rail
links when it opens, just so people wanting Terminal 4 aren't
inconvenienced now.

What would you propose to do ?

As was done during the building and extending of every deep tube line on the
underground since the 1920s. Build the junction round the existing tunnel
whilst allowing the service to continue running.

Clive Coleman wrote:
Seeing this debate is really quite an eye opener. Whilst I worked
on
the tube (late 60s & early 70s) there were no rail services of any
kind
with very little complaint from punters, but now they've had a choice
of

Oh come off it. Back in the late 60s Heathrow was barely past being a
small
rural airport and package holidays were almost non existant never mind
the
current vogue for long distance travel. There were hardly any punters
to
complain!

B2003

"Mait001" wrote in message
...
Just like the nonsense at St. Pancras! Has anyone tried getting a
Northbound
train from there in the morning peak? It's like walking against a
tidal-wave of
Southbound passengers for about half a mile before one even gets to the
new
platforms!

Never even been into the new St. Pancras, but I travel to and from King's
Cross Suburban on a daily basis, and know exactly what you mean.


It is a complete lack of "joined-up" thinking.

Indeed. I am convinced that the redevelopment of King's Cross and St.
Pancras is going to turn out to be one of the biggest failures of all time.

"Mait001" wrote in message
...
It's not the enforced closure of the line (although I fail to see how
installing a set of points and associated tunnel branching can take all of
18
months)

I wondered this too, given that similar jobs for the Victoria and Jubilee
lines were done with closures lasting no more than a few hours. However, I
understand that there are major problems with water at the site of the T5
junction, and for this reason a quite complex engineering solution is
required.


Install lifts or escalators at Hatton Cross for a start!

It would actually be pretty cheap and easy to install lifts at HC. Perhaps
this is a missed opportunity.

In message , Huge
writes

Absolutely. How *dare* your customers complain when you **** them up
the arse? How petty for the people who pay for the services to complain
when they are witheld. Bloody customers, eh? If they ****ed off and
minded their own business you could get back to reading the Sun and
drinking tea.
And quite right too.
--
Clive.

David Splett wrote:
"Mait001" wrote in message
...

It's not the enforced closure of the line (although I fail to see
how installing a set of points and associated tunnel branching can
take all of 18 months)

I wondered this too, given that similar jobs for the Victoria and
Jubilee lines were done with closures lasting no more than a few
hours. However, I understand that there are major problems with
water at the site of the T5 junction, and for this reason a quite
complex engineering solution is required.

There are some details in this month's Modern Railways (page 52). The
ground at the junction site consists of water-bearing gravel, and
conventional techniques to build a step-plate junction would risk a
collapse of the existing tunnel. "At the site of the existing junction,
the ground is being opened up for the construction of a big coffer dam
extending 25 metres down. ... Once complete,this box will then hold the
junction." TBMs will drill towards the site from the T5 end, but the
final breakthrough will be done outwards from the box. Then they have
the task of restoring the concrete aircraft taxiway over the box. In
the circumstances, 20 months seems reasonable.

Did I fall asleep at LURS in November, or was this important information
omitted from the talk on the T5 extension?

Install lifts or escalators at Hatton Cross for a start!

It would actually be pretty cheap and easy to install lifts at HC.
Perhaps this is a missed opportunity.

Based on the Earl's Court experience, I'm not sure about the cheap and
easy bit. Anyway, a couple of small lifts wouldn't be very efficient at
dealing with lots of people with heavy baggage all arriving together.

The missed opportunity, in my view, is the failure to provide adequate
publicity of the step-free route via T123 and HEx. It is not mentioned
at all on the poster* (customers are advised to phone for advice on
step-free routes), though it is eventualy mentioned on the new "Heathrow
by Tube" leaflet** if you read far enough.

* http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/pdf/Heathow-closure-poster.pdf

** http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/pdf/Heathrow-T4-%20leaflet.pdf

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

It is a complete lack of "joined-up" thinking.

Indeed. I am convinced that the redevelopment of King's Cross and St.
Pancras is going to turn out to be one of the biggest failures of all time.


Quite so.

Marc.

It is also the complete lack of foresight and advance preparation when building
the original line, and then the T4 line that irks me.

Let me give you an example. In the late 1960s/early 1970s, my father was a
civil engineer working for the London Borough of Hounslow. He was responsible
for rebuilding Stanwell Road, a road connecting the Great South West Road to
the cargo area of Heathrow Airport. At the time, there were vague rumblings
about building a rail link to Heathrow from Victoria. In the end, it was
abandoned because it would have cut through Buckingham Palace Garden.

With that possibility in mind, however, he ensured that there were culverts,
diverted drainage etc., and indeed an opening beneath Stanwell Road (that is
there, unused, to this day) so that this could have been used by the railway
line if ever it was built. That would have ensured virtually no disruption to
Stanwell Road had that line been built.

That is called foresight and forward planning that is so patently missing now.

Marc.

Mait001 wrote:
It is also the complete lack of foresight and advance preparation
when building the original line, and then the T4 line that irks me.

Let me give you an example. In the late 1960s/early 1970s, my father
was a civil engineer working for the London Borough of Hounslow. He
was responsible for rebuilding Stanwell Road, a road connecting the
Great South West Road to the cargo area of Heathrow Airport. At the
time, there were vague rumblings about building a rail link to
Heathrow from Victoria. In the end, it was abandoned because it would
have cut through Buckingham Palace Garden.

With that possibility in mind, however, he ensured that there were
culverts, diverted drainage etc., and indeed an opening beneath
Stanwell Road (that is there, unused, to this day) so that this could
have been used by the railway line if ever it was built. That would
have ensured virtually no disruption to Stanwell Road had that line
been built.

That is called foresight and forward planning that is so patently
missing now.


Whilst I don't disagree with you basic premise, it has to be said that the
site for T5 has been moved IIRC.